Loss of a Teenager

[4everjoeysmom]

Oh Kathy, I am sending you BIG HUGS (((((((((KATHY)))))))) I will be praying and I will even commit to fasting on the 16th as I pray for you. Know we are here lifting you up in our hearts and prayers in supporting you through the court proceedings. I know that can't be easy, so much mixed emotion. But here's to YOU Anthony!! May justice be done!

I think it's an awesome thing to become a part of changing bad and too lenient legislation. I believe in opportunities for redemption, but I alo believe consequences must be realized for poor choices. How could we ever expect to affect change for the good of mankind if people don't have consequences to face? You go girl!! Keep us posted on how you're doing with that if you do decide to get involved. It can be frustrating, because lawmakers can move so slowly, especially when it isn't an election year. You have some prayer warriors here that will be behind you all the way! Love and Hugs, Claudia

[binky20]

Dear Kathy and all the other parents who are facing "legal issues"_ we too are in law suits. One was filed October 1st....The grieving of your child is hard enough to bear but then when legal issues arise it is even tougher.

God is a God of Justice! and I Pray HIS Justice goes forth in all of our children's lives....

All my love of all of you...I pray Daily for every grieving parents & their families....It is not easy no matter how we look at it...

God's Grace to all of you,

Michelle (Colby's Mommy Forever!!)

[lagrangel]

The last two days have been difficult. We finally received Brent's death certificate in the mail today and I just had a horrible time. It seems like you start having a few good days and then you jump back to terrible days. My week has been very emotional when I am not working. Trish, yes I am an elementary school counselor. It has helped me to get going everday and not to think all the time. There are so many days I don't even want to go to work but I make myself. I think it is therapy for me and I do enjoy the children. Claudia, I hope your days get better and maybe the sun will shine. My husband said it seems like it has been forever since Brent has been gone and he really missed those big bear hugs he would give him. It all still seems so unreal but I am so gald that I have someone that I can share my thoughts and emotions with. Love to you all, Lana

[4everjoeysmom]

Hey Kathy, I recommend fruit juice fast. You still get nurishment and liquid, but it is cleansing to your body and healthy. You should be able to get therough the day with a littel energy. A total fast may leave you feeling weak at the end of the day. (Just a thought.) I'll be the one you hear allo the way from Ecuador cheering for you and Ant. Bless you my dear friend. BIG HUGS, Claudia (P.s. my home is yours anytime you want to travel to the southern hemisphere.

Yeah, Lana, it's gut and heart wrenching to get the final certificate. Joey's dad actually has my copy and I will see it for the first time next month when I go visit my family for the holidays. I know it will make me sad... And I too miss those bear hugs. It seems like so long, but sometimes only yesterday that the nightmare began. It is VERY surreal. You WILL have better days... I know you will. And I will too. Hugs, Claudia

[binky20]

Dear Kathy,

Thank you for your comment!!! We too could care less about any monies or any material things for that matter! The three days we had to see our son, Colby in the trauma unit, finally to be part on life support (no blood was getting to the back of his brain). Thank God for Blessing us with such an Amazing, Energic, Loving, Caring young man for 18 years!! We have No Regrets!! Just Looking Forward to Heaven by Rapture of the His Church or the grave!!! Colby Loved the Lord Jesus faithfully!! We were not the perfect family (by no means!!) but We Enjoyed and Loved each other deeply!!!!

God Bless all of you!!!! and your families...

Michelle (Colbman's mom Forever & Eternity!!)

[binky20]

Also, I had a question has anyone ever been to one of the local Compassion Friends meetings????

[kirksdad]

Compassionate Friends can be a great help if the local organization is active. When our son, Kirk, died we called the person in charge of the chapter closest to us and talked to him. He was really nice and invited us to come when we felt we could handle it. It took us about a year before we attended a meeting, mostly because we had to drive 70 miles to get to one, but were glad when we did. We attended for about a year and as our schedules with our jobs got back into a routine we weren't able to attend. I have to say that it was a good experience because the group was fairly large and diverse. I don't think I was ever able to talk about Kirk's death too much, but just being there helping, listening, and being around others going through the same thing was the right thing for that time in our lives.

I have talked to many people who have gone to a CF meetings and not all have felt good about them. Sometimes groups are small and some of the parents have an agenda that doesn't quite lend itself to helping others, they are just not ready for the sharing that needs to go on. I know that sounds harsh, but it is just what others have told me. If you have the ability to attend and you find the meetings and parents that attend helpful it really is worth while. Jim

[loveyoujustin]

I've been thinking so much about everyone, reading the posts, but haven't been able to put my feelings into writing on here. The last few days have been so hard. It seems like it is getting worse, and I can't deal with the idea that Justin won't be coming home. I just think about him constantly, and when I'm hit with that reality I don't know what to do with the incredible pain in my body and soul. It's too much to bear so I push it out of my mind until it comes back again, which is happening more and more. I feel as though I am really going to go crazy! I just don't know how to do this, if I can, or if I even want to? Instead of day by day, I feel I need to just think in terms of hour by hour, or minutes by minutes for that matter. I know Justin is at peace, and happy in paradise,and "always with me," but that doesn't fill the gaping hole in my heart and soul. Love to everyone. Trish

[4everjoeysmom]

Hi Trish, I SO REMEMBER feeling EXACTLY as you described. In fact, I knew I had faith, and I felt Joey was eternally safe and happy with God, but the "gaping hole"... my heart just sobbed, and it was so bad that I just couldn't believe I felt so hopeless in the midst of a faith in a God of Hope. I couldn't even sob without losing my breath completely from the physical pain and mental anguish that my broken/shattered heart realized. My husband truly thought he was losing me. He was so afraid, and he too is a very strong man of faith. Our loss just shook us to the core. It stripped us. It turned me into someone I didn't recognize for several months before I started to come out of the deepest agony. I was reading back on my old posts as I've been trying to copy and save them all before they change the board format (just in case...) and I can clearly see the difference in my life shattering pain then and my painful missing and longing now. It is different. It isn't as sharp as it was then. It comes and goes, and I do smile and laugh and enjoy life now, even though the waves of tears still come at times. I learned to allow myself to feel and not tuck it away, because it will surface despite my trying to control it. I needed to feel it and let it ride, as hard as it was. I hid myself away a lot and cried sometimes all day for days. Have you ever read the narnia books? I actually started to read them before Joey died, as I was trying to adjust to the culture shock and huge life changes of coming here to Ecuador. Something about the childlike fantasy images of CS Lewises writing, and the way his writing language danced along the pages comforted me. I was able to "escape". I would lie down for hours at a time and just read, think, read, think, cry, pray, read, pray, etc. After a time I was able to gleen images in my heart from Narnia that comforted and allowed me to visualize a different place where Joey is now--heaven through the heart of a child. Scripture reminded me to come to the Lord like a child, and as I read and allowed those images to penetrate, I began to feel the Lord's presence more and more. I needed that escape, and it helped so much through that time when my next breath hurt so bad that I could have lay down to die myself. There were other things I did, like sometimes just watching a mindless movie as I drifted into numbness for a littel while. It was hard to turn off my mind, but sometimes those escapes helped me to divert for just a little relief, even if it was only ten-twenty minutes. Like you said, minute by minute, and that is the way I had to handle my grief too in the early days and months, minute by minute. I still feel the gaping hole. And I've heard so many times a cliche among the churches about a God-sized hole that only he can fill. That may truly have been the case regarding my heart in a reborn perspective, but this is different. There is a still a hole in my heart that has not been filled. It has Joey written all over it. It has shrunken just a little bit, but I have a long, long way to go for that whole to ever heal, if it ever completely does. I know Jesus still has scars on hands and feet and his side where he was pierced. I think I'll be walking this life with scars like that. I know they'll be healed in heaven, but it seems so far away. You know? But do hold onto hope that it will not be so overwhelming as it is today, right now. Allow yourself to feel, and try to find your temporary escape so you can get rest, and know that you will come through this valley. It may not seem like it now, but you will be amazed one day to realize that the clouds are breaking and the rays of light will illumine your way toward hope and healing. Thinking of you with love and prayers, Claudia

[loveyoujustin]

Thank you Claudia. You really do give me that little glimmer of hope, and sometimes I feel that I have no choice, but I just don't know how to do it. I just cannot accept it. I guess I just have to think minute by minute, or hour by hour if I am lucky. Hopefully you will have a peaceful holiday trip with your family. The holidays are heavy on my mind. I don't know why I have to keep thinking in the future, it tears me apart!

Lana- where are you? I'm thinking about you alot because I feel we are so close in our journey together. I was thinking maybe one day we can give your son's and my daughters e-mails or im's to each of them. She is 18, and in college, and going through the same thing as him. I asked her the other day if she has spoken to anyone who has lost a brother or sister, she said no, only people who are now adults. I don't know, just a thought. Miss you. Don't leave us!

Love to all. Our beautiful children are "always with us." trish

[4everjoeysmom]

Oh Kathy! I was thinking of you, and I really am glad that the woman accepted to plead guilty rather than deny it and put you through a horrible trial. That is such a blessing. I think over all of this time you've been able to focus somewhat on this upcoming plea and sentencing, and in a way it has been something to preoccupy your mind, even if it isn't such a positive thing to focus on. Now with it almost over and her in jail, though like you said it doesn't bring Anthony back. I don;t think you've been able to just focus on grieving his loss, especially with all of the stuff going on pretrial and with that guy who calls himself Anthony's dad. People have so much nerve. I never cease to be amazed. You would think a legal system that is just would not see that this man is deserving of insurance money. Unfortuantely the system is not always just. I know I've said it before, Thank God He is just and one day all will be well--when we are reunited with our kids in perfect heaven. I'm so sorry you are feeling so depressed. I do hope you are able to get some rest over the next several days with the help of your doctor. And having time to just be is probably what you really need more than anything right now. Try and take care of YOU. Stay in pajamas and fuzzy slippers, rent a few good movies, have plenty of comfort food, and just chill, no phone, no work, no court, just you and the love of Anthony to surround you and keep you warm. Love & BIG HUGS, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

Kathy, My heart is just breaking for you. I can literally feel your pain, and as I read your post I cried. I remember the crushing weight like you describe, the inability to breathe because it hurts so badly, not wanting to wake up to this is my reality, wanting so much to see, hear and feel my Joey with me again. When you described last Thanksgiving I was thinking back to my Thanksgiving last year, the first one without Joey. I had a VERY hard time getting through the holidays last year. I kept thinking too, "last year at this time...", and it sucked! I cried non stop, and I just wanted to curl up into a ball in my bed and stay there forever until I die. Almost a year later and another Thanksgiving on the way, I honestly don't know how I am going to feel. I am going home to be with my family, and I'm kind of scared that the floodgates will open because it will seem so wrong without Joey there. I am hanging on, but I admit it is very hard on some days. I still battle depression too. It's harder for me to recognize it these days. It just sneaks up and then I feel stuck in it. I'm thankful that as time goes on it becomes less and less that I have those overwhelming days, but oh how hard they are.

I do believe for you it truly is like another beginning in your grief, because of all the things that pulled your focus away from letting yourself feel. And, dear, dear Kathy, I know how so very lonely this loss is for you, because Anthony was and is your all, your only child, your best bud, your world. I can only imagine how much more difficult that is for you. Plus you just moved, and you're on your own again. You don't have the distractions of being in your parents' place anymore. Isn't it weird? I mean if you feel remotely like I did, I didn't want to be around people, but it was just as bad if not worse to be alone--damned if you do and damned if you don't. You know? You're trying to get through your emotions and grief, this sentencing, adapting to a new home, and the stress of the situation with the non-father. Kathy, it has got to be so overwhelming. I can understand why you feel depressed and overwrought with emotion right now. I wish I could reach through my computer and give you a gigantic hug. I wish I was your neighbor, so I could come and cook a nice meal for you or clean your house, just to do something for my friend so she can rest. I would sit with you and listen, cry with you, and just be there. I wish... Dear Kathy, I really do hope you can get some rest. Sometimes when we aren't resting and eating right, the depression and grief feel so much stronger. And sometimes it's just the overwhelming love that we carry that feels bottled up inside because we can't give it to our child in the way that we have for so many years. I know that torture too. I wish I could say something to help you resurface from the deeper depression, but I know how it is and where you are, and it's easier said than done. But you can and will come through it. I hate that we have to go through the really deep valleys to get to the other side where things are a little bit lighter as we travel out of the fog and the pain into healing. I wish it wasn't such a slow process. It feels like forever and not soon enough, and there are no shortcuts it seems. But the hope and the proof that there is light on the other side of the darkest valleys is witnessed here in so many that have walked these paths before us and have found healing. And I have found rays of light and great hope in my journey too. It ebbs and flows still, but that I can even smile, laugh, have good and even excellent days, and feel alive again is a miracle. Joey was and is one of the greatest loves of my lifetime. I never imagiend after losing him that I could come this far. I get dicsouraged swometimes when the depression hits. It's normal and human to feel discouraged and depressed through this journey. I hope you can feel encouraged that this dark valley of depression won't last forever. You will come through, and I am praying for you. Hang in there, my friend... Sending love, many prayers, big hugs, and HOPE for a new and wonderous season in your life to begin that will bring sunshine, warmth, and better days. Love, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

Kathy, What kind of foundation do you want to start for Anthony? I mean, what exactly do you want the foundations purpose to be and its function? I'm asking because I did all of the legal work to set up our ministry. It's not a foundation. It's a non-profit organization, but it's a bit similar in the process. Maybe I can give you some advice or at least a little direction if I know more about what it is you want to do. E-mail me at clab2010@yahoo.com with more details when you feel up to it...

About today, a melting pot of emotions--You know? Me too. I almost bought a bag of mini snickers yesterday. I think if I had, I would have eaten the whole bag in one sitting too today. I hear ya on that one. Sending BIG HUGS, Claudia

[loveyoujustin]

Hi Kathy, Claudia, and Lana, (where are you?) Claudia, are you real, or are you really an angel sent to guide us on this heartbreaking journey, which I cannot even describe as a journey to recovery because, like Kathy, I feel that that just may not be possible. Kathy, my situation is different from yours in the sense that I lost my smart, strong, handsome, and loving 17 year old son in an accident only a little over two months ago, but he was alone, and there was not anyone else involved. But the truth of the matter is, our boys are in paradise, and we are in hell, and I feel your pain. My heart is breaking with you, and at this very minute, 12:40 am to be exact,I am wishing for peace in our hearts someday for all of us. Thank you Claudia for giving us the hope that this is possible. Good Night, and love to all. And to Joey and Anthony, include Justin in your fun up there, we'll see you soon. Our boys are "always with us" With love, Trish

[binky20]

Claudia, Kathy, Trish, Lana!!!!

I want to part of the group girls!! ha!! Just kidding...This hurt & pain is nothing we would have written in our book...Thank God for Blessing us with Colby for the 18 years here on this earth He did_ Plus, Thank and Praise Jesus Holy Name that We all have the Promise of Eternal life with our boys!!FOREVER WITH OUR BABIES!!! I CANNOT WAIT!!!!!

I too, have had a very intense month. I remember everything Colby did this month last year (wisdom teeth out, church fall outing, last pic we took of him on halloween)..My medical doctor has increased meds (like that is going to help!)...Trish said it best_ Our boys are in Paradise_ we are the ones in hell...Let's keep lifting each other up till Jesus calls us Home..

Blessings to all of you and your families,

Michelle (C$ FOREVER~ Colby's Mom Forever!!)

[4everjoeysmom]

Hi Trish, (I too am constantly thinking of you all and praying--we miss you Lana!)

I don't think I'm an angel. I know there will be times when I hit a wave and share here, and you all will be like, "oh! what happened to her?" But I do work really hard in my grief journey. I learned it's hard work to try and maintain some peace. When the waves hit, I try really hard to refocus on what I've learned and come to know along the way, and somehow I climb back out of the pit the wave has tossed me in. It's a process that leaves me with no idea when or for how long the waves will beat against me. But I do carry Hope in my journey, because i've learned too much along the way to lose that Hope.

One of my methods to get through some of the hard times has been to let the intense love I carry for Joey guide me to doing anything and everything I can do to show the world his death was not in vain. I just don't think I could take it if I thought Joey died for nothing. And I am learning no one has to die for nothing. It stinks that we don't have our kids with us. It's indescribeable, and I want more than anything to be able to have Joey back, but I have to keep going. If I stop going, then Joey's legacy dies with me. I truly believe that there is no one on this earth as interested in carrying on the legacy that is Joey more than I.

I'm so proud of kathy for some of the things she has shared in her journey, as hard as the road is to travel. Kathy is considering a foundation in Anthiny's memory, which I'm sure would touch and change many., many lives. And I believe she is alos looking into joining a group to fight and improve current legislation for drunk driving laws and punishment for such. That takes a lot of courage and stregth. And I know the love that connects kathy and Anthony will be the guide for Kathy to accomplish all that she sets out to do to build on Anthony's legacy so that Anthony is still reaching into the world to affect change for good through his mom. That's how I feel about Joey. Joey can still affect the world for good, even though he is not here. As long as I am living and breathing I will see to that. I felt this way really early on in my journey, but it took me some time to develop motivation, strategy, a desire to get out of my pajamas or to even take a shower. I went through a period of time where I didn't care about doing much but to sit and think and cry and wish... I think I enjoyed reveling in my pain for a time, because in some way it made me feel like my pain was mine and it connected me to Joey. I was SO AFRAID that once I would begin to let go of it a little I would begin to forget little details about Joey as I carried on. I was mortified and frozen in fear about forgetting Joey. That sounds so strange for me to say now, because how could I forget anything about that kid? He is as memorable as they come, as I'm sure are all of our kids to us. The only thing that will ever strip me of memory is a dreaded alzeimers. And if that happens, I've written and continue to write every little detail and memory I have so that I can read about him and get to know him all over again. I think about that and know I should consider doing that for my surviving son too, because I never want to forget him either. It's kind of peculiar what we do after losing a child to hinor and remember that child, and how often we forget about proactively doing something to remember other important people in our lives if our minds should fail through old age or illness. I think about that movie, The Notebook. It inspires me.

Anyway, I didn't mean to get lost in so many words. I guess my main point was to share that there is a deeper purpose for us as we survive the loss of our children, something more to do in the world that lets the world know they were here and they left a mark--their legacy. I find that has been a help to me in my journey to healing and recovery. I am forever changed, and I will miss and long for Joey for the rest of my life here. But I know the love that connects me to Joey forever will be my guide. And I know you have that connection of love too that will guide you...in time... For now it's a baby step and a breath at a time. Justin, Anthony, Joey, Colby, and the rest of our kids are still in motion, living, loving, laughing, learning, and leaving their legacies for us to carry on, to stretch them and reach into the far ends of the earth... Blessings and Big HUGS, Claudia

[wyomingsal]

Today is exactly 3 months since I lost my son, Joshua. He was only 10 but everyone in the young children forum seems to have lost babys or toddlers so I hope it is ok that I am here in the teen section. Joshua looked like a teen. He was already 5'3 and was developing into a handsome young man. Everyday he asked if he was taller then me yet and I would just push down his curly hair and say, not yet. But he really was just about there. I know he would have been by the end of summer. His 11th birthday on September 10th, was our first of many sad landmarks we will be celebrating without his presence this year.

Sal

[4everjoeysmom]

Hey Kathy, I don't want to jump the gun, because there may be a more expansive purpose for the foundation. However, it sounds like what you are specifically wanting to do would be better served and much less expenive, legal work, red tape. annual reporting, etc, if you created instead of a foundation a HOCKEY SCHOLARSHIP in Anthony's name. A scholarship would serve everything you mentioned. What's cool about the scholarship idea is that you could, in addition to laying out the criteria for acceptance, rules, etc, make it an annual contest to win Anthony's Scholarship Award by, for exmaple, any interested and qualified kids writing an essay or short story about why they like hockey and how they feel the scholarship can make their dreams come true. The wonderful thing about this idea is that you could start a "memories scrapbook" along with all of Anthony's hockey stuff to include the annual essays and stories that you receive from the interetsed kids who compete to win the scholarship. It may start out slow in the first couple of years, but once the word would get out (by maybe publiching the scholarship and rules, criteria, etc in regional newspapers annually, then you could literally get hundreds of essays and stories each year. How cool would that be. Do you think Anthony would like that idea? Anyway, I was just thinking over your ideas and desires of your heart and this popped into my mind. If it isn't quite what you're looking for, then we can look deeper into the foundation pros and cons.

Hope you're having a restful day... Love & Hugs, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

Kathy, I was just thinking again...LOL... If you want to go with the foundation, you could still do the scholarship within the purpose of the foundation, and then you could reach out for support for people around the States or world to contribute to the foundation financially. It's a lot of work, tax filing, bookkeeping, etc, but it really depends on your vision and how big you want this project to be in the long run... Anyway, lots of love, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

WyomingSal, I'm so sorry for the loss of your precious Joshua. You've come to a good place for compassion, understanding and support through your grief journey. I believe by visiting, sharing, and being a part of our community of grieving parents you will be amazed at some of the powerful insights and support you get along the way. Please accept my deepest and heartfelt sympathy for your loss, and know there are many of us here to walk with. You are not alone, no matter how lonely the grief journey is, and that's truly the best medicine for all of us--to feel not so alone. Hugs, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

A poem I found online at http://www.promiseofgod.com/

WITHOUT ME

When tomorrow starts without me,

And I'm not there to see,

If the sun should rise and find your eyes

All filled with tears for me;

I wish so much you wouldn't cry

The way you did today,

While thinking of the many things,

We didn't get to say.

I know how much you love me,

As much as I love you,

And each time that you think of me,

I know you'll miss me too;

But when tomorrow starts without me,

Please try to understand,

That an angel came and called my name,

And took me by the hand,

And said my place was ready,

In heaven far above,

And that I'd have to leave behind

All those I dearly love.

But as I turned to walk away,

A tear fell from my eye

For all my life, I'd always thought,

I didn't want to die.

I had so much to live for,

So much left yet to do,

It seemed almost impossible,

That I was leaving you.

I thought of all the yesterdays,

The good ones and the sad,

I thought of all the love we shared,

And all the fun we had.

If I could relive yesterday,

Just even for a while,

I'd say good-bye and kiss you

And maybe see you smile.

But then I fully realized,

That this could never be,

For emptiness and memories,

Would take the place of me.

And when I thought of worldly things,

I might miss come tomorrow,

I thought of you, and when I did,

My heart was filled with sorrow.

But when I walked through heaven's gates,

I felt so much at home.

When God looked down and smiled at me,

From His great golden throne,

He said,

"This is eternity, And all I have promised you."

Today your life on earth is past,

But here life starts anew.

I promise no tomorrow,

But today will always last,

And since each day's the same way

There's no longing for the past.

You have been so faithful,

So trusting and so true.

Though there were times

You did some things

You knew you shouldn't do.

But you have been forgiven

And now at last you're free.

So won't you come and take my hand

And share my life with me?

So when tomorrow starts without me,

Don't think we're far apart,

For every time you think of me,

I'm right here, in your heart.

David M. Romano ©

[katant]

Claudia...that's a good idea. Scholarship. I will need to study up on it, learn about it, red tape as you say...and figure it out. I have a little bit to get through first.

we will talk...thanks again

kathy

[loveyoujustin]

Love to Everyone, Wyomingsal, welcome to the "club" that nobody wants to be a member of. Like Claudia said, may you find friendship, companionship, love and some type of peace here. It's pretty much all that helps me these days. Michelle: the more hearts and love and encouragement, the better!

Lana: Thinking of you, and hoping you are bearing with us.

Kathy: We have set up two things for Justin: one is through our high school, the Touchdown Club. They set up a scholarship fund in Justin's memory, and they have raised $6,000.00 so far. (We asked for donations in lieu of flowers) Justin played football since he was 8 years old, similar to that of your Anthony and his love of hockey. This was to be his senior year, and he was being recruited by many colleges. He was on his way home from a pre-season workout when He had his accident. Needless to say, the media was very involved, still is, throughout our high schools football season. The painted giant #45's (Justin's number) on the 45 yard line, znc so many other things to honor Justin. Other neighboring schools even retired their #45 jerseys. The love and honor to Justin is just indescribable. Another thing that my husband has set up is The Justin Scott Wagner Memorial Fund, Inc. We are hoping to purchase a video display screen through donations to his fund, to place above the scoreboard on our football field. That will be the first of many things that that memorial fund will provide to honor Justin's memory. We had to do it through a lawyer, and such, and it is a corporation, but it really didn't seem like a major undertaking. It seems funny, but I feel that since we've all connected here, our boys are somehow connected there, hopefully playing their sports, having fun, and waiting for us in paradise.

Claudia: I get the waves that you describe, but more often than not. I know it is only the beginning for me, and I feel so overwhelmed with the thought of "forgetting" anything about Justin the same way you describe. It is crazy, but I can't help feeling like that too. I have started a journal also. I started with everything I could remember that he said and did that last week. It's almost funny how I am still learning about him from some of his friends, especially some of the girls. Boy did they love him! I hope he knows that! I miss him to the very bottom of my soul, and the pain in my heart, body and mind when I realize he isn't coming home is unbearable. I just can't wait to see him! I know what you mean about remembering the other children, but I feel like I don't know how to be a good mother to them anymore because I am hurting so deeply, and missing Justin so terribly. I feel that because my life will always be so sad, and I'll just never feel the same happiness as I did, that they won't either. My hope for them is that they will grow, (Kristi is 18, and starting her adult life, but Ryan is only 14, and will miss so much now) and find their own peace and happiness. It's all so confusing. I'm still numb, and feel as though I could go crazy at any minute. Thank God for all of you. You feel my pain, and only all of you can understand.

Love to all of you. They are "always with us", but they are happy in paradise!

[loveyoujustin]

Claudia, I forgot to mention, and it's funny you should post that poem, but Justin's friends actually made a permanent memorial at the accident site, and they purchased a gardent bench with a verse from that poem on it, and they placed a large stone cross, with the Lord's Prayer on it, along with a large picture plaque of Justin on the side of the road. They made a whole little "area", with stones, and cobblestone border and everything. They had t-shirts made with that poem on the back, and Justin's picture on the front, and they are dedicating a two page layout in the yearbook, and putting that poem in it. It's beautiful. Just wanted you to know. I think we're all connected in many ways. There are no coincidences, and no accidents. Good night, Love ya, Trish

[4everjoeysmom]

(((((((((((TRISH)))))))))))) HUGGZ

[lagrangel]

Trish and Claudia, thanks for thinking of me. We left town on fall break to get away from it all. We went on a cruise where noone would know us and no one would ask how we were doing. We stayed busy the whole time with little time to think. I only broke down once at the dinner table but we sat by ourselves. It was something that just came to my mind about Brent. We did enjoy ourselves but it all came crashing down on the way home from the airport. Today has been a rough day for both of us. Just all the little things about Brent came to mind. We both are having a hard time missing him so much as you both know that terrible feeling. Brian went to Brent's grave last week before we left and he had a terrible day. It was really bothering him alot. I do treasure all the memories that we have but it is so difficult at times to think I have to do this how many more years!! I did read a good book while I was gone called 90 Minutes in Heaven. My dear fiends sister had sent it to me a couple of weeks ago and I finally read it. It does seem like the grief just comes in waves when you are least expecting it. My husband and I said we never know when it will show itself. Trish, if your daughter would like to talk with my son we can exchange their e-mails. I know they hurt they may just not show it especailly since they are away at college. I know he tries to keep very busy also. I do feel we are both at the same point in our grief still so fresh and heart breaking. I just hold on to seeing Brent one day. Claudia, I do apprecaite every thing you say to us since you have been down this road. We need all the support from everyone so we can make it another day. Sal you hang in there with the rest of us on our journey. I know it seems so unbearable at times but if we get up and make it another day we have done good. Love to all, Lana

[4everjoeysmom]

Lana, I am so glad that you were able to have a temporary respite on your cruise. You've been through so much. It sounds like just what you and your hubby needed.

I think the coming holidays are going to be excruciating for all of us, for various reasons and for the obvious. In a couple of weeks I will be heading out to see my family and spend 7 weeks with them and my son Patrick through Thanksgiving and Christmas. It will be my first trip back to the States and home since Joey died. I don;t know how I fele yet--kind of excited, but dreading what I have been able to hide and escape from facing to a degree by being so far away from home--very mixed emotions, plus being apart from my husband for that long. I'm really glad we all have each other to lift one another up with encouragement, prayer, whatever, because it really does help to feel like someone else is out here with us and we aren't alone in our grief or our journey.

Remember the boards will be down tomorrow for their facelift. Lets pray it goes well and there will be no unforeseen delays. See you all again here soon. Love & Hugs, Claudia

[loveyoujustin]

HI guys. Lana, welcome back!??? Wow, I envy you for the cruise experience, good for you. I missed you! Claudia, we will be here for you, just as you are so lovingly here for us. Bad day today for me, but it is 2am, and I am going to try to get some kind of rest. See you all on the new boards. Love you guys, and Justin, I miss you more than anyone could know. Good night.

[lagrangel]

It was a very bad day for me Sunday. I did not sleep last night and have to go to work. I don't know if it was coming back home to the real world since our vacation. It was just like it was the first day all over again since Brent's death. My husband was very down and he said I want to sell the house because there are just to many memories that smacks me in the face everyday. It's not that we don't cherish the memories but it just seems it makes every day life so difficult to keep going. I was up till 1:00 a.m. just crying and wondering how I am going to get through the days to come. I feel so sad today and just feel that I can't keep going and pretending to everyone that things are okay. I hope and pray things will get a little easier. I know Brent would be so upset if he knew how much my life has changed and everything is so difficult..... Claudia, you know that we are always here for you especially with your upcoming visit home. Love to all, Lana

[loveyoujustin]

Hi Lana, Sunday was a reaaaally bad day for me too. Today I didn't even shower, or brush my teeth. I drove Ryan to school, back to bed, went to the cemetary for a while, back to bed, up, fed Ryan, and I think I am going to go back to bed. I think it is probably good that you have to go to work, because it makes you focus on something else for a little bit. I feel as though this is getting worse for me. I just can't pull myself out of it. I just checked Justin's e-mail that we set up for colleges, and so many more schools are trying to recruit him. Our athletic director notified the 39 schools that were already in the process of recruiting him, but now these are new schools that are interested in him. It makes me so so sad when I think of where he would be going, and how much he had going for him,, and how much he had to look forward to. I just can't take it, and I cannot accept it. Justin's friends are starting to hear from schools they've applied to, and I guess it just is really tearing me apart. I feel like everyone is just going on with their lives, and I am stuck in this deep, deep sadness. I miss him so much. Lana, what are we going to do??? HOw are we going to do it??? Love to all, Trish

[lagrangel]

Trish,I think we are at the same fork in the road. That is the only thing that keeps me focused is I have to go to school. I was so so down this morning I just wanted to crawl back in bed. I cried on the way to school and stopped past the cementary on the way to school and just cried for Brent. I came home after school and just cried and told my husband that it is not getting any easier. I feel like I am back at day 1. I know it is so heart breaking but we just have to push on. The only thing I keep doing is asking the Lord to help me through this nightmare and I ask him to help to understand and to tell Brent how much I love him and miss him. I know you miss your beloved Justin and they both had such a future ahead of them. All of our dreams and hopes for Justin and Brent have vanished but your other children love you and need you. Both my boys stay in contact with me weekly to see how we are doing. You know how you feel losing your beloved son just think how much your children need their mother after losing their brother. I know the pain seems so unbearable and you are so right everyone goes on with their life and here we are at a point in our life it just hurts to get up every morning. I am praying for you and our families because that is the only thing I can do to try and get through this. I know somehow with Gods help we will get through this trial. All my love, Lana

[lagrangel]

Trish, I came across a poem that a freind of Brent's sent me and it is called A letter from Heaven. If you go to the internet you can type in a letter from heaven and access it. It is a wonderful poem and I read it frequently. The person who wrote the poem lost her husband. It helps me to get through another minute of the day. All I can say we are here for each others journey and to help make it through another day. So many have been on this road which is a journey none of us wanted. We need to remember the wonderful years that we had with our boys and I was so blessed to have Brent 19 years and oh how I would have traded places with him but it was not to be. I know that someday I will understand why. I have seen a closeness and a wonderful relationship develop between my two boys since the death of Brent. They have a bond now that I have never seen and am thrilled they have grown so close to each other. They actually live in the same town and talk to each other regularly and see each other on a weekly basis. I know life seems so meaningless because we wanted our boys for our entire lives. It is not suppose to be this way losing your child before we pass. It makes life so difficult and to continue on is just almost unbearable. I will get up again this morning and the next day and continue my life and always think of my beloved Brent each and every day. I cry so many times and just don't know how I will continue but with the help and support of each other we will make it another day. You are in my thoughts today and I hope today will be a better day for you. I think of Claudia and how she has helped me in this struggle and maybe as time goes on we will be there for others to help them in their struggle. No one can truly understand the grief we are going through until you have faced the same journey. When I read some of the other posts it just brings tears to me and I know somehow we all will get through this journey. My Love to all, Lana

[wyomingsal]

My husband Jeff has been really down the last few weeks. I think some of the depression he put off to get through the immediate grief is settling in. I feel so badly for him. He has bipolar disorder which doesnt tolerate stress well and I would say losing Joshua counts as the biggest stressor we have ever faced.

Anyways Jeff told me he had a dream about Joshua the night before last. He dreamed that he was hugging Joshua (He knew in his dream that Joshua had died). And Joshua told him its going to be ok. Jeff doesnt usually have positive dreams. He has nightmares and dreams of losing things and people. I think the dream was so cool and I think it is possible it could really be from Joshua. Jeffrey asked "then why don't I feel any better?" I am hoping this dream will help over time to put Jeff's mind at ease. The hurt and pain of missing our boy will always be here. We will never stop missing him. But if Jeff can know in his heart that Joshua is ok he might be able to find some sense of happiness still left in the world.

[jjrmom]

I am feeling so sad and alone now. I wanted to know if anyone of you who may have a surviving sibling has had to use tough love?

[antspop]

Hello, my name is John. Our son Anthony passed away a little over 2 months ago on August 15, 2007. He was on an atv that was too small for him. He was 16, the atv he was using was for a 10 year old. From the look at the accident site it appears that he lost control and hit a utility pole. He was our youngest boy. He only turned 16 at the end of July. We also have a 19 year old son. He has taken it very hard. My wife and I have our moments. The only way to describe what this terrible feeling is like is that it really SUCKS:X! I wouldn't wish this on my worse enemy. Reading seems to help. Talking to others that know this terrible feeling helps alot. Thanks for listening.

[loveyoujustin]

Hi John.  Lana and I know exactly how you feel, well we all do here.  My beautiful son Justin was in a car accident on August 10, and Lana's son Brent left on August 11, so we do know just where you are on this heartbreaking journey.  If you read past posts, you will see how much help and mostly hope that you will find here.  I think it is what has helped me the most.  I am so sorry, ffrom the bottom of my heart for your loss, and I can honestly say, I feel your pain.  You will find some comfort here.  You will see that you are not going crazy, and that your feelings are normal.  That has helped me tremendously.  Some days I just don't think I will make it through.  We are all here for each other, and just talking and listening with and to others who are walking with us in these shoes, (that nobody wants to wear,) is one tiny little thing to keep going.  I also have an 18 year old daughter, and a 14 year old son, so I know how it feels to think and worry about them, but I feel like I am so deep in my sadness that I don't really know how to genuinely help them, except by faking it, and going through the motions.  Keep talking with us, and hopefully you will find some peace and love here.

Claudia,  Miss you.  John needs your words of encouragement!

Lana, how have your days been.  Sometimes it seems like I will be ok, and then it seems like I go back to square 1.  I know you feel the same.  Thinking of you, and hoping you are hanging in there.

Love to everyone.  Our boys are "always with us.":?

 

[angelzone]

Our oldest son Evan was in a fatal bike accident 9/1/01. That's been six years ago now. His younger brother was 10 at the time and now he is sixteen. We have all had a tough time but my husband and I have had eachother and Ryan has had just himself. His ADD self. He was diagnosed with ADD a month before his brother's accident. We have spent many years feeling sorry for ourselves and Ryan. The first few years, we let a lot slide. We were not consistent and let him do whatever he pretty much felt like. Not terrible things, but lots of weekends and evenings doing video & computer games.

I think the last few years he has really needed us and we have had to show up and be parents. Setting firm limits on EVERYTHING. It's like having a 2yr old again with a 16yr brain. He has said a lot of terrible things to us. You can imagine. Very hurtful but we have had to be firm and be parents. Our therapist pondered the idea that when Evan passed, Ryan lost his brother and parents. For years his role was to fetch kleenex and water for us and basically disappear in his games.

So now that we have come to this point in our grief, we realize that our son has to know he can count on us to be there for him. He is always testing this and testing the consistency of our boundaries. With the help of some therapy and he is now this year on Wellbutrin ( the therapist diagnosed him with depression as with boys it is easier to be mad than sad) This has really helped him.

Another thing that's helping is a grief group he goes to as a "mentor" for the new kids coming to "Healing Circles" run by the local hospice bereavement center. It's for kids who have had losses. He is a mentor but it also helps him to help others with this.

Another outlet for our son is his music and he plays in drumline at school and after school in a band.

Our son, after some horrible, awful 4-5 months recently is starting to come round and play by our rules. Wellbutrin has helped the slamming doors, holes in walls, verbal abuse.

I wish you the best of luck and please seek all the help you can find. None of this is easy.

[4everjoeysmom]

AntsPop, I'm so sorry for your loss.  I'm really glad that you found BI, because for so many of us it has truly been a lifeline.  It hurts so much losing a child, and it does help us to vent, release and share about our kids.  One of the best therapeutic methids I've found is walking this journey with others who can relate, have true compassion and undeerstanding, and be real.  Please come and post often.  We would love to get to know more of your son, you and the rest of your family.  Grieving is so difficult and our losses are so painful, but knowing we are not alone is such a blessing.  I'm so sorry you have to be here with us for the obvious reason, but welcome, and know that there are friends here who care.  Hugs, Claudia (ForeverJoeysMom)

[4everjoeysmom]

I just couldn't resist.  I had to try the attachment option to see what happened.  That is my Joey. 

Love and hope for healing to all!  -Claudia

[fujismum]

Claudia your Joey is just so handsome! I have read your memorial site in the past and wonder why we had to lose our gorgous handsome young sons. This is so hard.

It is so hard to accept that they are gone when they were so fit, healthy and vibrant, striding out in life . I think even after 14 months we still struggle to believe our 17 year old Jamie has gone, but somehow the shock is receding and a feeling of reality, that this really is FOREVER, is settling in. I know  that Jamie is safe in heaven with God , but right now we just want him back safe with us.That, or to join him too.

Our remaining son Tim is 21 and although we know he is grieving deeply he does not talk about it at all.Just the revealing random  comments that gives us a window in to his feelings.I know he has bad dreams, sleeps badly, misses his little bro so much.He is lonely, but he loves his job and throws his all into that. I think we are all lonely really, lonely for Jamie and  the family life we had and loved.

It's not just the loss of our son or daughter, it's seeing our other children suffer, watching our partners faces etched with pain, our elderly parents fragile and lost.It just goes on and on doesn't it?

[antspop]

Claudia, thank you for your kind words. Your son was a handsome young man. It's just not fair that he and so many of these other young people weren't given the chance to become adults and to experience the things we adults do. I know that they are in a much better place and they don't have to put up with the BS that we do, but I, for one, would have liked to see my Anthony become a man, settle down with a woman that he loves, have children of his own so he could see how beautiful and special it is to have children. I just feel so cheated sometimes. I believe my wife and I are good people. We go to church every Sunday, we donate to many different charities, we don't steal. And then I watch the news and somebody is either molesting a child or killing someone and they're still living and breathing. It's just not fair!!! Believe me if I were given just one wish, I wouldn't wish for money, or a huge house, or a fancy car, JUST ONE MORE DAY that's all. I never got a chance to tell Anthony that I loved him, never got one last hug and kiss goodbye. I just miss him so much. Thanks for letting me vent to you I hope I didn't upset you or anyone else. John

[4everjoeysmom]

John, Your post is what all of us feel.  I treasure every moment I had, but will always wish for those things too...  You can vent any time.  Share more as you are able.  It feels good for me to share, because in some way Joey goes on here with me through my voice.  I love that about posting here...  and I love that about others' posts as well.  It is sad that so many of us are here, but I am so thankful we don't have to journey our grief alone...  Blessings, Claudia

[loveyoujustin]

Hi everyone,  it's been a while.  John, please keep posting, it is what has helped me the most so far.  It's been a little over 11 weeks, and I actually have gotten through the last two days without a complete breakdown of hysterical sobbing, just alot of tears.  Is that normal?   I thought about it, and I figured that I have two choices, either wallow in bed in my deep sadness, or get up, and at least try to go through the motions for the sake of my family, and try to "go on" for Justin's sake.  It really scares me though, because I don't want Justin to ever feel that I am moving on and "forgetting" him, even though in my heart and sould I never really could or would.  Does that sound familiar to anybody?   At times I think I really might go crazy!  My mind plays these games that Justin is coming home sooner or later, and that he is just "out" or away at school.  John, you travel with Lana and I down this journey at similar times, and I hope that we can be of comfort in one way or another together.  Cluadia has been such an inspiration to me, and I am sure that she will be to you also.  It is because of faith, and Claudia's words that I am certain that Justin is in peace, with happiness in Paradise, but it does not make me yearn for him any less.  I have not spoken with anyone else who knows this pain besides you all that I have met here at BI, and I have shunned most of my friends thus far.  I know it isn't right, but it is something that I need to work on.  I truly feel that unless you have walked in my shoes, which all of you have, you could not even begin to understand me.

Our beautiful sons are "always with us" even though not in physical form.  My daughter Kristi is putting together a memorial site for Justin, and as soon as she is done, I will let you all know, so that you can have the opportunity to know my Justin, just as I would love to know of your beloved children.  Love to all,   Trish

[lagrangel]

John, we all know the terrible pain that you are going through. It is so fresh for some of us and it feels like it will never get any better. I have had a horrible week:X but I am ready to take on another day. It does help to talk to others who have been where you are. It is very difficult for others to understand our pain. You and your wife hang in there and just keep posting and reading especially when you need that extra help on a day or even an hour. I have joined a local support group of parents that have lost a child within a year. It is nice to know how others are feeling and realize you are not the only one who is going through this journey of grief. I am glad that I found BI and I hope it can help your family. I beleive my son is truly in paradise and as my husband says, "would you want him to leave such a wonderul place just to be with us". We will always have those wonderful memories to cherish.   Love to all, Lana:cool:

[4everjoeysmom]

Trish,  What you are feeling after a couple of days with fewer meltdowns is normal.  I remember feeling SO GUILTY when I first laughed, and when i got through a whole day without tears.  It's somehow like we aren't honoring our kids enough.  But I am here to say there is no right way and no wrong way to grieve and mourn for our children.  Through tears and meltdowns, we express our deepest agony and pain of being without them.  Through our smiles, laughter and days of cherishing memories without tears, we express how much their love we still and always will carry with us--their funny, quirky ways, the thinkgs they did and said that were so precious, and especially their desires to always be pleasing us.  I'm sure lots of kids were like My Joey.  He was quite a handful growing up, but he always wanted to please me, make me happy with him, etc.  He was all about life!  And I know he would want me to be all about life too.  So that is why I no longer feel guilty for smiling and laughing, and finding joy in a day.  I know he is laughng and smiling right along with me, because he is in eternal joy now.  For a while our hearts play tricks on us as we go through the early stages of mourning and grief, trying to tell us that all we do and feel is wrong.  But its just because life feels so wrong without them here.  We WILL come through this--different and with a heart that will always long for what we lost--but we will come through.  I'm so thankful we have one another to feel so not alone.  Big Hugs and blessings to you all.  -Claudia

[loveyoujustin]

HI Claudia, Well I lied yesterday when I said I made it through two days of only tears flowing, and no meltdowns.  For some reason when I got into bed last night, the agony overcame me, thus the hysteria began, until I finally exhasted myself to sleep.  I've been meaning to ask what you all feel about medication.  Today we saw the therapist, and he absolutely feels my husband and I need to both be on medication, just to help us do the everyday things.  Other people have told me it helps, but I'm a bit confused about it.  I just don't want to "mask" what I am feeling, and quite honestly, I just don't even want to feel "good."

Lana, Hi, how is the group going.  There are a few in our area, but I am not sure if I can even physically walk into a room filled with others who know my pain.  I think I may be getting closer to being able to do it though.  I would love to know what you think of it.  Is your husband going with you?

HOpe everyone else is getting by.  WE miss you!

I am grateful to all of you, and to be with you on this journey.  Love to all, and our boys are the ones who will get us through, they are "always with us."    Trish

[lagrangel]

Trish, yes my husband is going with me to the support group.  We were both not sure about going but we thought we would give it a try. I am glad that we went.  All of us handle grief in different ways.  It was nice to have another person  there that had lost her son almost a year ago. I could see how much further along in the healing process she was. I am not saying her life had not changed but she could tell us how she had come from where we are to where she is today.  We will always remember our loved one but we will find a place in our heart to honor the one we lost instead of being consumed with the pain. A freind of mine  took some medication for a few months when her children had left for college and she was dealing with her mother that is manic depressive. She said that it really helped her,  As the group leader said you do need to take care of yourself to help with your healing process. I would dicuss it with your husband and doctor and see how you feel about it.  All my love, Lana

[wyomingsal]

Trish,

My beloved son died on July 20 so I am also fairly new to this horrible grief and loss.  Last month I still cried every single day.  Sometimes every few hours.  This month I have made it for a few days at a time without disolving into hysterics.   It is like the pressure of the grief builds and needs to be released in an emotional storm so you can go on again.  As the intensity level of the grief lessens over time the pressure builds more slowly but it is still building and needs to be released.  I have also heard it said that in  grief you take, "two steps forward and one step back."

I think medication can be helpful in some circumstances. But I also think that your grief is still so fresh and raw that your feelings are normal.  I had the luxury of a broken thumb the day my son died so I couldn't go back to work right away.  I was able to do nothing and did't have the pressure to comform back to the world's standards right away.  If you can't function and have to function because of a job then the medication might help.  If you are so low that you can function enough to care for yourself or if you are suicidal the medication might help.  But if someone just thinks you aren't moving along fast enough???  I would have some choice words for the them.  It is ok to grieve, cry, scream, despair, feel overwhelmed, rage, and any other emotions that fill you to overflowing. 

I did put my son on medication because he was having intrusive thoughts of hurting himself and jumping into the river where Joshua died.  He is doing really well right now an can still expresses sadness and grief even while on the medications, but he is able to focus in school and also have fun with his friends.  I don't know if that helps at all.  I still hate it every day that my boy isn't here with me.

Sal

[fujismum]

Hi everyone, like many I visit this site almost daily but rarely have the courage to join in.Also I am posting when most of you are in the middle of the night- I won't say asleep, because I guess like me it is those long dark hours at night that can be the worst.

We lost our 17 year old just over a year ago.I thought I would go mad with grief at first and felt so physically ill I thought I must just keel over and die.But you find that you do keep "surviving" even if only to be there for the rest of the family. I resisted any kind of medication, not that it was ever offered to me, as I truly believe grief has to be felt and experienced and gone through.There is no pill for grief.And don't be afraid of the pain, the pain is a mirror of all the love we have for our children and our loss.Face the agony, feel it, experience it and then in time, and I don't know when, the healing will begin. That is not to criticise anyone else who needs to take medication, we each travel this journey as best we can, we are all different.

We also have a double grief to bear, the loss of our children and all the future hopes and dreams we had for them, but we also  grieve for what we feel THEY  have lost by being cruelly taken from us.All their own hopes and dreams and potential.No wonder it is such agony!

I cry out to God all the time, asking Him to be with me, to heal my broken heart, to fill me with His peace and comfort.Sometimes I just have to have faith as I feel no comfort, but other times there is a calm that comes. Thinking of you all as we each do our best to survive. Anne X

[loveyoujustin]

:?  UUGGH, I am so confused.  Lana, Sal, Ann:  Thank you so much for your words and opinions.  I cannot value anyone else's opinions, except yours, as anyone who has not walked in our shoes cannot even begin to imagine how we live, learn, and try to carry on, without our beloved children.  I work, or I should say worked in my husband's office, but I have not been back in yet.  It will be 11 weeks on Friday since the day our lives changed forever.  My day usually goes like this:  wake up, give Ryan, (my 14 year old son) breakfast, drive him to school, come home, back to bed until 11 or 12, shower (most days), people still coming over, some laundry, and I don't know what, but whatever it is, I am just going through the motions.  I have thought of dying, but not necessarily suicide, as I told the therapist, it just would not matter to me if someone killed me, or if I should get some dreadful disease. Anything to bring me to Justin is what I think about. The therapist's belief is that I owe it to my other children, (besides Ryan, I also have an 18 year old daughter), and to myself, that even though my world has changed, and Justin will be forever in my heart, I need to try to keep going, and that is what I don't know how to do.  I know everyone has their own personal "journey" to take, and I feel as though I don't even want to do it.  I know it sounds crazy, but I know you all understand.  My heartache is so intense, and when I think about Justin not being here with us anymore, I just feel that I am not able to accept it.  Thanks for listening.  I hope that one day,  when any one of you are having a "day", that I will be able to help you too.  It seems that's what we are all here for, right?  You all have been a comfort and encouragement to me.  Thank you.  All my love to you, and to our boys.  They are the lucky ones.      Trish