I Believe in God...

[4everjoeysmom]

Mark, I am comforted by your words rooted in deep faith and the intimate love of God. Thank you so much. I pray you feel that same comfort in the Lord through His power and grace, and definitely through the prayers lifted to Him by the saints on your behalf. Your beautiful wife is precious, and the love you have for her mirrors Christ's love for the Church. It's the most wonderful gift you can give her. Bless you both, and thank you both. Isn't it wonderful to know that no matter how much our circumstances may change, the Lord is perfect and unchanging--forever and always good? With much love in Christ, Claudia

[lauraa]

Hi Everyone:

Just checkin'in to make sure you all are doing o.k.

I have a heavy heart right now and I am going through some rough terrain.....I need you all to hold me in your prayers for strength and courage to get this what I need to get thru this next week.......I am grieving but it is all so compounded for me. A weight is pressing me down but I am staying firm and steady. I need energy. I need you all to send your energy and prayers my way.

Please know I think and pray for all of you everyday.

God bless you all.

[jackiewitter]

Lauraa, You are most definitely in my prayers. Just three short weeks ago I had my power prayer team from this site on my side as I faced my brother's birthday and cleared his apartment. I could feel their love and healing prayers with me throughtout the day. I hope that you may have the same. May God hold you so very close all next week. Peace and blessings, Jackie

[rodless]

Positive energy and prayers are on their way to you!! Hang in there... Stay strong and you'll come through. We're all with you in spirit. Mary Jo

[4everjoeysmom]

Lauraa, Praying for you... Love, Claudia

[lauraa]

You are all the greatest....thank you all for responding and holding me up in prayer. It will be a long weekend for me with lots of preperation for next Tuesday. Please think of me on that day. Pray for strength and endurance for me. It has been a long time coming and it is here. So emotional for me..........Thank you all.

I wish none of us have to be here. It is a pain no-one should have to endure. Thank you all for being my support though this nightmare.

Remember...Tuesday....Power of prayer!

[samrtb]

i hope i came to the right board for this question. but i've been wondering it and dont really know where to get an answer.......do ADC's go againt God? My boyfriends mother is very religious and doesn't believe in them, and has told me that anything i experience is actually the devil trying to confuse me,e tc. but i have experienced some things that i've come to believe were my boyfriend trying to reach me. any thoughts on this would be really appreciated......thanks!

[sidvis]

I was raised in a Christian home. Through all the Sunday school classes and Sunday sermons, I got the message that visions and all that were from Satan. The experiences I have had since my husbands death are not from Satan. I believe that God permitted me some solace by letting me know that my husband made it. That he is with God. To me, there can be no other explanation. I don't know how I could have survived this devastation without the help of the Creator. My experiences are very "inner." There has been no visions or visitations. It is just a profound feeling that I cannot describe. Again, I know it comes from God. It has to, there is no other explanation.

[sidvis]

samrtb--check out forum "coping with loss--open discussion" 4everjoeysmom has an excellent post on this very subject.

[4everjoeysmom]

Hi samrtb, I've seen your posts on the ADC's Visions & Dreams thread, but I don't dare post my thoughts there, because it would only spark debate and maybe hostility. People ultimately believe what they want to. But here I BELIEVE IN GOD, and it is His Spirit that guides me to an understanding of His Truth. I read that you have a religious family that makes commentary to you about such things that you are asking about. The problem with this is when people spout of religious and/or Biblical worldviews, and they don't help you to understand where they are coming from (with gentleness and respect), or show you in Scripture where these things are outlined in God's Word, then you're left only feeling more empty, more confused, and much like you've just had a conversation with a religious nut. I feel for you very much in these situations, because you are seeking guidance and answers, and help should come to you with compassion for the difficulties of grief and the pain that you feel.

I was not raised in a Christian home, but I always believed there was God. I only just received Him into my heart five years ago to guide me, counsel me, save me, and help me to know Him more. When we don't live with Christ as the center of all we are, then we are open to many, many, many misgivings about who God is and Truth. Many people believe truth is relative. But TRUTH is "absolute" in God, in Jesus, in His Holy Word, and that can all be found in the Scriptures. But the Scriptures warn us that the Bible won't make sense to the skeptic. They don't have the Holy Spirit as their guide to bring them insight and understanding into what they are reading--so it more like looking through closed blinds and getting only bits and pieces and filling in the rest with your imagination, which can lead to anything (except truth). Therefore, much of it appears (to use some commonly used descritpions) silly, intolerant, narrow, etc, and then there is always the excuse from skeptics that it's poorly translated in various "versions" of the Bible, so how can it be true. Man wrote it? All kinds of excuses are thought up by speptics to discredit the Bible. And others simply just want to follow a religion that is "comfortable" for them. Christianity and believing and following the Bible is not easy. That's why we need God in our lives for it to make sense. And I don't mean the fluffy God in a while teddy bear suit, God is everywhere and in everything, God is tolerant of all religions kind of god. I mean the God of the Holy Scriptures, the God that created the Heavens and the Earth, the ONLY God. All others are false. I could create a case for this, but many have done a better job than I could possibly muster. I'll list some books at the end of this post.

In a nutshell, it is my Faith that pulls me through my pain of losing my son; it's my belief that God is who He says He is, and all the He promises to the Believer will find me with Him for all eternity when this life is finished. In the meantime, everything that happens in my life has a season and a purpose, and my life was created for a purpose. I don't claim that my life should be without pain and hard lessons, because I follow God and He gave Jesus as an example--to be more like Him. Most of us fail everyday to be like Him, but that's why God gives us "grace". God isn't a cruel monster. But He is to be feared, respected, and worshipped. Most of humanity is more into being comfortable, worshiping themselves and things like success, money, relatives, rock stars--whatever. When we don't seek after God and truly desire to know Him, we are subject to everything and anything out there that claims to be truth and religion, and whetever--including "signs".

When my son died I wanted assurance that he was in Heaven. I wanted to know without a doubt that he was well. It's a natural response when we lose someone we love. And even though I knew Joey had prayed to receive Christ and had exhibited change in his heart that identified that God was working in Joey, I still wanted proof. Well, those signs never came to me. But I had a few different, very godly people share with me that God gave them "a word" or a vision for me. I believe them. I believe this can happen. I believe when we are so spiritually in tune in our walk with the Lord, that He shows us things. He reveals more and more of himself to us. So I was comforted by what these people shared with me. I was satisfied that they were truly messages to the heart from God. But I would be very skeptical is drawers were opening and slamming, pictures began to mysteriously fall off the wall, TV's were going on and off and stuff like that. I know phenomenon like that exist. But I also know that there are two spiritual relaities to contend with--good and all of God and His angels, and evil and all of satan and his minions. It is wise to discern the difference. And sometimes it's a faulty circuit breaker and our wild imaginations. The human mind is an awesome and powerful tool. We just have to always be careful to know which powers that be are we allowing to use that tool.

I am encouraged Samrtb. I am encouraged that you are seeking more information on all of this, and not just taking the word of everyone in the ADC thread. I believe they mean well, but that is only one source for information. Be kind to yourself, and do yourself the greatest favor you could ever possibly do for yourself--seek, seek, and seek again until the answers to your questions all make sense and are fulfilled in your spirit and soul. I believe God is tapping your senses and wants you to go on a fact finding mission about His TRUTH. I will pray for you!!!

Some excellent sources:

Hank Hanegraaff is known as the Bible Answer Man. He wrote the Bible Answer Book and has much info on the web at www.equip.org

The web site www.AnswersinGenesis.org

Lee Stroebel has written the books, A Case for Christ, A Case for Christianity, and A Case for Christmas. These are all very good books about the "myths" people expell on Christianity and God, and has powerful documentation and arguments against those myths--even scientific stuff.

Ravi Zacharias is one of my favorite teachers and apologists of all time. His web site is www.rzim.org

Just for Kicks, I love The Chronicals of Narnia---a wonderful series of fantasy adventure that helped me to paint a serene and tender image of spiritual matters concerning death and beyond. I couldn't put the books down! They were kind of healing for me in a childlike sort of way.

And don't forget that you can investigate different churches around you to see if anything jumps out at you. We have found wonderful support in our church family.

There is a wonderful book for women called Captivating - by John and Stasi Elderedge

I realize this is a lot to throw at one time. But I hope and pray you consider digging deeper into the mysteries of God and what brought you here in the first place. Not everyone out there that claims to know God and believe is a religious kook. (But there are some very misguided people and churches, and I pray also in time you will be able to know which are healthy and following God sincerely.) I know from personal experience that when I allowed God in, magnificent and amazing things began to happen, and I have been growing ever since. I pray the same for you. God bless you and continue to drive you to seek Him. I could not have come this far after losing my son without a loving and merciful God. Love, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

Here is a Scripture that speaks (to the unbeliever) that God is there always, and if we would just feel around and seek Him, we can find Him and know He is with us.

It also is important in sincerity of seeking to pray that God will help us to find Him and know Him. If we are sincere in that prayer, HE WILL ANSWER!

Act 17:23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.

Act 17:24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,

Act 17:25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.

Act 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

Act 17:27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

Act 17:28 for "'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, "'For we are indeed his offspring.'

[4everjoeysmom]

Yet another beautiful quote to share from my daily devostion...

"The essence of the Christian worldview is that we are not natives of a world of mirages but children created for the city of the King. We believe the Father is the Maker of all good things, the giver of comfort as we press on toward the goal, looking to Christ who shows us how. And we believe that our greatest comfort in life and death is that we are not our own but belong to another. Our pilgrimage is not an endless attempt to reach a kingdom of fleeting promises. We are moving toward the comforting vision of a real and worthy King." by Jill Carattini, writer for Slice of Infinity at rzim.org

[rodless]

I like scripture quotes and references to books but I don't appreciate sermons and disparaging of other beliefs. I don't believe this is the place for them. For the record, I am a Christian and I have a deep belief in God and the power of Jesus Christ. I have two children in the Christian ministy, one an ordained Presbyterian pastor. However,this message thread says I believe in God, not I am a Christian. Let's be fair to everyone....even those who find comfort in ADCs and dreams. I do. Mary Jo

[4everjoeysmom]

Mary Jo, Hi. I'm sorry you are offended. I was simply responding to a question from a Biblical perspective, and I know that stirs up contravercy sometimes, although I try to be cognizant and respectful when I do share. I have not ever attacked anyone personally for their beliefs, nor do I feel this would be a place to do that. I did state the ADC was "one source" for information and thoughts, and there are many other sources. But that was merely because I know the poster that asked the question visited that thread before coming here for a different perspective. The young lady that posted referenced her boyfriend's parents, who are Christian, and in doing so I suspect that she is looking for evidence or something that corresponds with something they are trying to show or teach her, but apparently may not be explaining it in enough context. I did not say the other was a wrong source, just that it is "one source". As I said people believe what they want, and have free will to do that. There are many sources for comfort. I, myself find comfort in dreams and I know many people that have visions, and I do not disparge them. In all fairness, let's be fair here. Someone came from one thread where people believe one thing, and visited this thread where most of us believe in the God of the Bible. I have made NO claims of truth that are not specifically in the Bible. But I do realize the Bible has a lot of stuff that people find uncomfortable and intolerant. There are other threads here for people that believe in many gods, no god, or whatever. In this case, and in this thread, quoting and sharing wisdom from a Biblical perspective (which so happens to by my Rock in my grief) is not inappropriate. I respect your thoughts and feelings sincerely, and in no way am I looking to hunt people down to impose my views. I primarily share with folks that genuinely are seeking something from a Christian perspective, but I have a compassionate heart for EVERYONE and their pain. People also have the option to ignore what they don't agree with, which is what I do in many cases when I visit a thread and see posts I don't agree with. We all have different ways and means for coping with our grief, and I respect that. Please accept my apologies for any personal offense you felt in reading my post. My faith is just as important to me as yours is to you and others' is to them, and I am not here to belittle that. I am here merely to share how I cope and help others with what works for me when they obviosuly are looking in that direction. I'm not here to cause trouble, nor do I hope anyone else is here to belittle me for my beliefs and sharing what I believe when someone asks. Beyond that, I feel it's very important to state a defense as to why I believe what I do. If you felt that was a sermon, I can't really defend that. It's what you thought. But please understand I'm not into half hearted responses and leaving people hanging wondering what did I mean by that--thus the fuller explanation. The half-way responses from the boyfriend's family is I suspect why the young lady is so confused in the first place. Again, I am sorry for your personal discomfort in my post, and I am truly very sorry for the loss that brought you here in the first place. Blessings of Peace and Love, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

To Everyone Else, I am sorry for my strong approach to the Scriptures; if it has offended anyone, please accept my sincere apolgy. In a large I feel most of us that hang in this thread are Christians who fully believe in the Word. I may have been wrong to assume that. And so I will keep that in mind and respect that others may visit this thread that believe in a god other than He of The Bible and Creation. Forgive me, and I wish us all peace and comfort in our pain and loss of our beloveds. Most sincerely, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

For Samrtb, My original post to you was strictly from a Biblical perspective. In your question, "do ADC's go againt God?", if you were referring to any other god outside of the God of the Bible, I'm afraid then that my post is misguided, and I am sorry for that. Maybe I should have asked first which god you were referring to... I do believe in visions and dreams, and the Bible does reference a few ADC's, but they are rare and have very specific purpose to the points in which they are referenced. As I stated in other posts on this topic, this is a VERY difficult topic from a Biblical perspective and for various reasons to mankind there is a world full of opposition to what the Bible says--mostly because it's strongly worded and just not comfortable. The Bible can be very convicting... Please forgive me if my post seemed insensitive to what you are experiencing or if it has personally offended you. I believe your boyfriend would want you to be comforted, and I believe his parents want the same for you. Blessings, and Love, and I pray you find the answers you are seeking. Love, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

Perhaps this isn't an appropriate question, but I am open to hear what others that frequent this thread think... The opening to the thread says "I Believe in God: A place for believers..." I am just curious how we all define that word--"Believers". In light of the recent post about this perhaps not being a "Christian" thread, I may need some clarification. I always correlated the word believers to mean a Christian who believes in the God of the Bible. I just don't want to find myself placing thoughts from a Christian and Biblical worldview in a place that has a mixed idea on God and what the word believer means. I have found a lot of comfort here in shared views by Christians who implicitly believe in the God of the Bible... and now I am questioning myself and feeling quite down that I am misplaced and have offended many.... I don't want to be "That Person" that is known as a trouble maker or pushing my views... That is not how I operate. I really need some encouragement about now. I feel quite disturbed in my heart and really down at the moment... Think I'll go pray...

[starchild]

Good Afternoon Everyone: As always I have to thank my higher power for another chance to give him honor and praise. I've been going through alot this past week with the service and all the feeling that go with it. But I've been thinking about you all and I'm glad to be back. Daddy had a simple, elegant service and it was nice to see all the people who came to say goodbye. I ended up giving the eulogy which was difficult to say the least since I wasn't prepared to speak. But I asked the master for the words and the strength and took it from there. There was military funeral and it was outside, and it was COLD! My stepmom is such a beautiful lady and I'm hoping to be some comfort to her.... even though my heart is really heavy right now. And speaking of dreams, Stanley came to me Friday night. Probably letting me know that he saw Daddy. I miss that man so much. I have to believe that all things work for the good. Laura: My prayers for your situation and I hope that the outcome brings you peace. Try to find comfort in God's will.

Mark: It's nice to know that some things you can depend on. Like you being difficult. Take care of yourself. please!!!!!!!!

Claudia: Apology accepted. It's not my religion that brings me here. Raised by a head deacon and deaconess, scared of going to hell. It's my spirituality. Raised by trials and tribulations and surviving hell. That's why I want to see heaven.

Please everyone remember to be good to yourselves. I love the new clean look of the boards. Till this time next time. Stay blessed......luv ya.

[4everjoeysmom]

Starchild, I totally admire your courage and strength to have given the eulogy for your daddy. I don't know that I would be able to do that. My husband gave my son Joey's eulogy, and I just don;t know what I or my family would have done without his courage and strength. Of course we gove all the glory to God, as it was ultimately His strength we drew upon.

I'm with you on the ultimate reason why I am here at BI. I'm not a fire and brimstone kind of girl. But I would prefer to escape hell eternally and here on earth. This is one of the wonderful avenues God has given me to do that--so many beautiful friends here to journey with... My love and prayers to you as you continue to seek His ways to be uplifting and uplifted. -Claudia

[rodless]

Claudia, I don't think you necessarily offended anyone including me, but I think you overlooked the possibility that there could be people on here who are not mainline Christians. I have Jewish and Mormon friends who I consider believers in God...I would never doubt their faith just because they are not grounded in our Bible. Mary Jo

[kagansmommy]

I am not a Christian. I do believe in God. When we were faced with the decision to take Kagan off life support I thought there is no way I will be able to make that decision. I felt as if it was up to me to decide when he was to die. But when the time came this calm that I can not explain came over me and I knew it was time. I could have sat there and held him for as long as I wanted but God told me it was time for Kagan to go. I was the same way with his funeral. His viewing was on Monday and the funeral on Tuesday. So on Sunday night I went to the one place I knew I had to go to gather strength to get thru the next two days...church. My ex husband was leading testimony service and he almost fainted when I stood to give my testimony. Something I had never done in all the years him and I were in church. I knew it was God who gave me strength and I wanted to thank him for it. David, my ex, also knew why I was there. So he had me come up front and the entire church gathered around us and prayed for my strength. I walked out that night knowing I had gotten what I came for.

I in no way call myself a christian though. I thank Him everyday for bringing Kagan into my life. I have also cursed him too many times to count because I only had him for 18 short months. But I know God understands where that pain is coming from and lucky for me he is a understanding and forgiving God.

Starchild, you are such an inspiration. I know you were awesome at your Daddy's funeral. Your words bring such comfort and peace to others. And your strength inspires me so. I didn't get to go to my Daddy's funeral. I don't regret it because Kagan was in the hospital 100 miles away and I stayed with him...right where my Daddy would have expected me to be.

Take care everyone. My prayers are with you all.

Christy

"Mommy loves you Kagan"

[4everjoeysmom]

I agree that I may have overlooked the possibility that people of other faiths might possibly visit and post on this particular thread. And now that contraversy has sparked, I can imagine many more visitors to confirm that. My reason for being at BI is the same as everyone else's--I am trying to survive losing my son. But I do have a born identity in Christ Jesus that should be respected as well, and that identity influences how I think and process my grief and how I respond to others. I don't doubt anyone's faith. I just don't rest my faith in their faith--as it should be for all of us who claim to have faith. I certainly don't respond like another faith is a disease... It has nothing to do with disrespect or lack of compassion for the hurting, which I do want to be sensitive to that as well. And I thank you again for opening my eyes to that possbility.

Christy, I know God understands your pain. He "understands" all of us. And you are right, He is very forgiving. I wish we were as much. I remember being very angry with Him for a time for taking my Joey. Blessings ALL, Claudia

[kagansmommy]

I wasn't offended by anything you said. As I hope you weren't offended by what I said. I choose to follow no path at all right now. Peter and I both have lost faith in so many things. I can't get past being angry at God. I'm sure that in time I will. I think it is great that you have such faith in what you believe. I wish I could get to that point in my life. For now I am kind of hanging out there in space without a safety net. That really scares me but I can't get past it. Maybe one day I will.

Christy

"I love you Kagan"

[4everjoeysmom]

Not offended at all, Christy. In fact, I appreciate your raw honesty and your fear. If you don't mind, I'll certainly be praying for you and Peter as well. Love, Claudia

[samrtb]

4everjoeysmom -

first i just want to thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. i really appreciate you going into detail for me about scripture etc. i thought i would give you a little bit of my background so you'd know where i was coming from. i was raised in a catholic, but mainly non-practiciing home. i went to church on sunday's until i went to highschool, and after that i had very little to do with any religion at all. until i met my boyfriend. he grew up in the midwest in a very christian (lutheran to be exact) environment. he was in the coast guard and was stationed out here in the northeast while his family was in minnesota. his family kind of felt that he had strayed from his faith and so for the two years that i was with him, his mom put alot of effort into bringing him closer to God. About six months ago, he was diagnosed with a seizure disorder that was causing him slow brain damage. This is when he really began practicing his faith again, and trying to share it with me. I went to church with him several times before a car accident took his life. what struck me the most about his funeral was how at peace his family was. they were very calm in the fact that he was with God, and although they missed him, he was safe and they would see him again. even now when i talk to his mother, she is always the calm one, telling me that God is getting her through this, while i am the hysterical mess.

so i guess i dont know what to believe. on the one hand, when you, or his mother, explain your beliefs to me, and how it gives you strength and peace, i feel that it is something i want to further look into. but at the same time, i am human and i dont understand how a loving God could take someone so young (he was 24) or so good.....and that goes for my boyfriend, as well as your son, or the loved ones of anyone reading this. and i know, everyone says God has a plan, but it is still so hard for me to wrap my mind around. I feel that I need concrete answers, which is why i cling so hard to "signs" that i feel im receiving, etc. its not because i want to offend anyone, its just that i love him so much and i miss him so much and it kills me that i cant know if he is ok or if he is with me. And i'm confused that if so many people who receive signs are comforted by them, how could they be from anywhere but God? it doesn't seem to me that satan or other evil forces would want to bring relief to those who are grieving.

again, im not trying to offend anyone, or question anyones beliefs, i am just truley curious about all of these things. i have never felt such over whelming feelings of dispair as i do now. and im sure all of you do every day. and joeysmom, i certainly can't imagine loosing your son like you did, and I feel terrible for you, just like I do for my boyfriends mom. but i really want to thank you for your posts, the more information i have the better i think i will feel. and thank you to everyone else who responded to me as well. i know we are all here for the same reason and i admire all of your courage and ability to help console others.

love, steph

[rodless]

Just so you have my story also... my husband died in July after 5 years of chemo, lymphoma, lung problems, pneumonia etc. etc. He was one of the most patient and kind people I have ever known. He was raised Catholic, left the church after a divorce and never completely reconciled himself to any other church although he was a "believer." I never saw him open a Bible or quote a scripture yet he never questioned God's path for him or lost his faith as he endured his illness.

I was raised Lutheran with religion stuffed down my throat and a great knowledge of the Bible. After rebelling in college I came back to the church, found my own way and after my divorce discovered a deepened faith and belief that in no way came from my church or pastor who ignored the whole situation. My decision to change denominations came from the fact my son had a calling to the ministry at a young age and I wanted him to have a mentor who was also a compassionate, tolerant person. I thank God that he turned out to have a wide vision of faith, and although he calls the Presbyterian Church home, he is interested and supportive of other paths.

My personal faith does rest on Bible teachings but I am very careful not to think everyone needs to do the same. That said, I hope we can go on comforting each other for the reason we are all here.... losing an important person in our lives and grieving in whatever manner works for us. You have all been important to me in my journey of sorrow and I pray daily for everyone on this board. Mary Jo

[4everjoeysmom]

Steph--You are such a sweetheart. And I had no doubt where you were coming from with your questions. My post was meant for you, as is this one. I imagine you will find many answers in many different places, and it's really ultimately up to you and no one else as to which of those answers you find peace with. I pray for your safety on that journey.

When my son Joey passed away, my husband gave the sermon at his memorial service. Not a single one of us in Joey's immediate family cried or fell apart, and so many people just couldn't believe it. How could we be so strong? The whole family! Ultimately none of us took credit for that strength. We truly felt the holy spirit with us in that memorial service. We felt God's love lifting us up and we were greatly comforted by our hope in Jesus. But even if we hadn't felt anything, we just knew God was with us personal and up close. Neither Joey's brother or his dad were Christians on that day. Joey's dad always opposed christian bible-thumpin views. But in the afterlight of what happened that day, what they felt and knew, they both turned to God within a week--not by any coaxing either. It was solely the work of the spirit, and I suspect others of the 400 that day felt him too.

I don't profess to understand fully why things like this happen. I do know that by being a Christian, I am not immune to any trials in life, including the loss of a child. Joey was one week from 24 when he died. And I felt for Joey the same kind of love and concern spiritually that your boyfriend's mother did for her son. I'm confident about my son's eternal state, just as she is about her son. And that brings us comfort, because we are confident in our God and that He will unite us all again when the time comes for each of us. I can tell myself God has a plan, and Joey was part of that plan, and his day to die was chosen long bef0re he was born. And I truly believe all of this. But it still doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, and it still hurts unbearably at times. I can tell myself that death is unnatural and was never meant to be for us, that sin and the fall of the world has placed us into temporary death before we move on to spiritual eternity, as I believe we are created as eternal beings. But still, there are missing pieces and I hurt. It's in times when I can't possibly know all the answers of God in this life, and that I have to rely on his truths to satsfy me until that point when I can know more, that I have to make a very real choice of trusting Him or cursing Him and turning away. I've done both. But his grace and mercy have shown me in very real ways that he has not abandoned me no matter how much I have shamed him in my own actions, thoughts and feelings. I am thankful I didn't stay angry for long.

Most of the stuff you've heard and experienced from a christian perspective I suspect have been cliche', and that is so unfortunate, because it makes us left to feel like nothing is resolved and all we are getting are stupid one liners. I have no one liners for you. I ache and bleed, and I have had moments where I have been angry and despairing. I stumble and I fall down, and I get back up again and wipe the dirt from my knees. I cry, I scream, and on occasion I've thrown something. I talk to my son every day as if he is standing beside me. I pray to dream of him. It's all my way of coping. But moreso now I have moments of the kind of peace that passes all understanding, as in Philippians 4. And I understand the seasons of my sorrow and mourning, as in Eccleisates 3. And I know God is faithful and good to never abandon me, as I called on Him to save me, and I believe that's what he did once and for all when I received his gift of grace and salvation. So, I no longer fear and depsair. I have a hope in his eternal promise, and I stand to give a defense for my faith as in 1 Peter 3:15. I don't believe all signs are from the enemy. And I am sorry of I gave that impression. I think sometimes we become so hypersensitive to things around us that we actually begin to take notice of much more than we ever had before--kind of like the cliche's taking it all for granted, and not realizing truly what we have until it's gone... that kind of stuff. And as human nature, most of us have some really vivid imaginations. I can conjur up just about anything if I want it. And my grieving heart wants to conjur up a whole lot more than my sensability will allow. But I believe and the Bible says God wants us very much to trust Him--and that means to trust Him even when we lose a loved one and don't understand the full nature of life and death as to why some live to be 90 and others to 9 months or even less. I believe God gives us comfort in various ways, and he could very well bring signs, though there is not a whole lot of biblical evidence to that--some, but nothing significant. That doesn't mean it can't happen, but widespread epidemics of signs and wonders for anyone who wants or needs one just makes me a little leary. It's kind of like the whole televangelist slaying people in the spirit on cue. I can't believe that many people can just drop specifically on cue when a TV camera is pointed at them. I've been in some spiritually string churches and I have seen authentic things, but never on cue when an audience is expecting with great anticipation--usually more in the quiet unsuspecting, unexpecting way. The TV slayers do that in the name of God too, but it doesn't make it a good thing even though it "feels good" to those that participate. The God I believe in says my faith should be in the things "not seen", and so I just don't actively seek to see things, because I do have faith in the unseen that He speaks of. There is no rhyme or reason to death when it occurs other than I don't believe God picks on us individually to say ok, Claudia, now I am going to take your son away. It's much more complicated than that. And I cannot profess to understand all of God's ways, because the simple truth there is that His ways are not our ways. He is God and we are not. And if I could understand everything as he does and be like Him, I would then also possibly inflate my ego enough to think I could become him or at least become as smart as he is. And that reminds me of the first fallen angel's story.

I get confused too sometimes. And so I find comfort in a source that I trust and that has not let me down--not really. I could take it personally that Joey died. But it isn't my fault, and it certainly isn't an attack against me that Joey died. It's certainly an unnatural order of things for him to die before me. But then death is unnatural too. Death has been around since Adam, but it was never meant to be a natural part of life. The only part of death that is favorable to me is that when I die I will be with Jesus. So in that, I find comfort because I know that's where Joey is too--because specifically we chose Jesus as our way. I work as a full time missionary, and I have seen some pretty miraculous things concerning signs and such. And I have also seen some very scary things concerning the same. But the biggest miracle I have ever witnessed is how the Lord has changed my life, and I don't expect everyone to understand that either, because not everyone knows just how wretched my life was. I could give a testimony here, but i guarantee it would be too shocking for this site. I try to keep a balanced perspective. But I always seek the ultimate answer from the Bible. I don't expect everyone here will agree with me, and that's ok too. (And I hope and pray I don't get a backlash for this post...) But you, dear Steph, are asking for many perspectives, including a biblical one, therefore I feel a duty and a heart full of compassion and love for your emotional and spiritual healing to at the very least share with you what I trust in. It doesn't make any of this easy for me. But since Joey has died I have seen more blessings come to so many people through his memory, and I have to thank God for those blessings. I would rather have Joey here, but then he never really belonged to me either. I was his birth vessel and his mom. But ultimately he came from God and he returned to God. I can't be angry about that for long... I love Joey and I love God. And I will see them both some day.

So as to not put anyone out on any future posts to threads, if you would like to e-mail me personally for any reason at all, or to discuss more in depth anything that I have shared, please do. Just look for my e-mail on any of my my post areas profile. Love & Hugs, Claudia

[rodless]

Laura, how ya doing??? Praying in a special way for you as you face tomorrow... strength and courage!! Mary Jo

[rodless]

Steph, I think you can be a hyterical mess and still have the calmness of spirit knowing that your loved one is at peace and with God. It depends on the day. I know with a solid rock feeling that Rod is taken care of and I will see him again. However, that does not mean there aren't days that I miss him so bad that I could be considered a little out of control emotionally. Take each day at a time, talk to those who provide some comfort, do what feels right and know that all of us who are grieving truly understand the mixed up feelings. God bless! Mary Jo

[rodless]

After rereading my posts of the last day or so, I have decided to stay off this thread. I obviously have stronger opinions than I realized and since I do a lot of formal writing (policies etc.) I come off as being stiff and judgemental. This is a topic that really speaks to personal choice and interpretation and I stepped over the line. I apologize to anyone who has been made uncomfortable and wish all of you the best as you make your grief journey. Mary Jo

[sidvis]

Mary Jo, it's okay. You know you can discuss anything and express yourself anyway you like here.....Has anyone read When Bad Things Happen to Good People? It is excellent. I really liked it. There is a chapter I like to read over and over. I am not going to tell you which chapter because I think everyone should read the entire book. It is written by a rabbi.......Peace

[4everjoeysmom]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, as the onslaught of my posts could have been more cumbersome to read regarding how long they were (sorry about that folks), but I do think we brought an important issue to light and worked through it with kindness and respect in the end. In a world of varied cultures, religions, and ways of coping with grief we are bound to have differing opinions and ways of following our faith. It's good to know that we can come here and express our grief, and how God helps us to work through it. Undoubtedly what we share won't be favored or agreed upon by some, but to know that we can share how we feel and how we cope, which is also rooted in our faith, is I think important for all of us. Even Christians largely disagree amongst themselves on doctrinal issues and Bible interpretation--thus all the denominations and issues therein, so it's not surprising that we may find ourselves insensed by something someone says. But just knowing we can take the high road, to not banter on the issue of disagreements on faith, and ultimately share in a light of compassion and understanding for the one common thread that binds us--grief--it's very encouraging to me. Blessings, Claudia

[alwaysmyjennifer]

Once again, my physical condition has kept me from you for a few days. While I away, someone got into my puter and trashed it, causing it to send stupid garbage. If anyone received anything, I'm deeply sorry, and I apologize. Please know that I had no knowledge of any of this happening.

Expression is allowed by all and to all. Except for two of you, I don't know anyone's religious backgrounds. As for me, you know I've been through grad school for ministry, and you know my work. Please keep in mind that by next week, nobody will be talking about any of this. May God give you peace. My prayers are always with you all.

[4everjoeysmom]

Hi Mark! Isn't it enough that you've been physically out of sorts? Now your computer up and gets a nasty virus?!! Yuck! I do hope you are feeling a bit better. We've been missing you Bro! Hugs to you and yours, Claudia

[lauraa]

Hey Everyone:

I miss you all. Thank you for keeping me in your thoughts and prayers, especially yesterday...I made it through but I am quite exhausted. My brother is visiting with me for 2 weeks so that is a good thing for all of us.

I hope all is well with you all. One day at a time.

[alwaysmyjennifer]

Claudia, just one of those things, I guess. It's an occupational hazard. Sometimes, when I'm working with musicians, one of the jokers gets it in his "brain" to send such things attached to music files when he uploads to my puter. The best part of all this is, it gives me a reason to rebuild my puter. This is a good part? hehehe. Most everything is going well here, kind of an even keel thing. It's nice to have this for a change. Hope all is well there. I pray for your work all the time. His, Jenni's dad

[alwaysmyjennifer]

Laura, it's not good for young kids like us to get exhausted. We may sleep through time for milk and cookies. Many prayers for you, my friend. Hope all is going well. It's nice to hear you have company for a while. With the extra company and hoopla, be sure to still give yourself time just for you. You still need time to sit and think, and you need time to spoil yourself a little (you're worth it). My prayers are with you and your children. hugs, Me, Jenni's dad

[4everjoeysmom]

Hey Mark, Thanks for the prayers. You're a super soldier for the Lord, and I regularly pray for you too.

It's funny that you mention having the chance to rebuild your 'puter. Is that a prerequisite class in mission college?? My husband is constantly tinkering and rebuilding something on his laptop, pda, or any one of the numbers of gadgets he has. He's such a gadget guy. But it's nice to have that skill around. Yesterday a lightening charge went through the landline and zapped my laptop plug in for the phone. I was unplugged from the electric, but forgot about the phone line being an issue. So we bought a new ethernet card today, and Michael is ready to go. His eyes light up like a chirstmas tree whenever we're within 100 yards of a computer store. Too bad everything here is double the price or more tho. Oh well, at least we can get a part here--in Quito that is. Our neck of the woods barely has an indoor toilet. LOL

So glad to hear things are calm on your homefront. I pray they stay that way for a while... Love & Hugs to you and yours, Claudia

[mofirefly]

Hi - Wasn't sure where to put this, but had to express some thoughts. I got out my dictionary and looked up "coping" - means to strike, fight, maintain a contest or combat usually on even terms or with sucess...to deal with and attempt to overcome problems and difficulties. Looked up "grief" - deep and poignant distress caused by bereavement. Looked up "poignant" - painfully affecting the feelings/piercing. Looked up "bereavement" - the state of fact of being bereaved by the loss of a loved one. Looked up "befreve" - to deprive of something, to take away. After looking at all this I realized I've been in combat with my feelings of loss, which led me to a scripture I've heard forever but hadn't thought of since lossing mom - "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory. But thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. PTL!!!!!!! I can just hear our Lord saying - well she finally got it. He won this darn battle...I just didn't realize it would mean I no longer have to fight for my peace. Just had to share these thoughts somewhere - hope noone minds. Maybe it will help someone else. Thanks for the space to put down my thoughts - it will free up what little memory space I have left. Take Care!

[4everjoeysmom]

Hi Mofirefly, I so appreciate your post. I think that we live in a world that's so full of distractions, that no matter where we turn, if our eyes aren't focused on the eternal matters of the Lord, we are subject to being constantly caught in that battle for peace. It's when we can rest in the assuarnces already given to us that we truly have that peace for more than a short time. My battle is ongoing in how to drown the noises of distraction. And wow! Is losing someone so dear ever a distraction...! We serve a good God who reminds us in His Word that daily we should put on our Armor, because He too knows the battle for peace in a world such as this is a neverending battle, until that day we can be at His side for eternity in the victory He claimed once for all. Love & Hugs, Claudia

[lauraa]

Hi Everyone:

I am sick with the darn viral thing that is going around and that my boys have. Just wanted to check in and see if you all were o.k.

Thanks you all for keeping me in your prayers last week. It was very stressful for me, ie. probally reason I got sick.......thinking of you all daily.

God bless.

[alwaysmyjennifer]

Laura, Sorry you caught that miserable thing, girl. My grandson had it, and was miserable cuz he had to miss school. Poor child. I'm praying for you, my friend. Take as good care of yourself as you can. hugs, Me

[alwaysmyjennifer]

Claudia, oh, funny! Indoor plumbing? I know of some people not far from here who have a privy. Yuck! I guess it is the true water saver. hehehe. There are drawbacks though. hehehe. Gadgets are always good though. Would it be any easier to Fed Ex the things you need instead of paying so much? Or is there a wallet emptying tariff? I'd be willing to help you ship these "necessities", if it were less costly in the end. Take care of yourself and for what it's worth, I'm always praying for you. Me

[starchild]

Good Morning All: As always I have to thank my higher power for the blessings of another day underway. That would seem to be my mission statement. Remembering to keep gratitude in my attitude is such hard work. And I haven't been feeling like doing the work lately. But in spite of myself I continue to press on toward the mark. I miss you guys and you are all in my prayers as usual. I have to stay honest about what I'm going through and keep the lines of communication open so that I don't isolate and get all caught up in my head, you know? My spirit has taken another blow and I trying not to let this latest loss knock me down. But it's gets harder and harder to find the motivation needed to maintain my spiritual healthiness. I'm digging deep. Gotta keep faith in God's plan. Remembering that this is his business not mine and all things work for the good for those who love him. But it hurts. I hope this posting finds everyone at some measure of peace and keep your head up. That's what I'm doing. Till this time next time, stay blessed. Luv

[lauraa]

Starchild:

I am so sorry for all your loses. I went through a similiar time when I felt as if a truck hit me. As each day passes just do alittle something for yourself just as a reminder that those you don't have with you physically any longer would want you to be o.k. and happy. They are still with you even though we have to walk in the valley alone. God bless you my friend and just know you are in my thoughts and prayers daily.

Have been sick this week so I am hanging low.

[mofirefly]

To others who come to this site - I felt I had to post a request to lend a helping hand/ear (whatever) to the person who is posting called "Witsend" - last post I saw was on the anger forum. I know there are so many others who visit this site who might be of encouragement to this person. May you all take care.

[alwaysmyjennifer]

Starchild, when you write, I always feel a blessing has been given. This must be from your sincere and caring heart. Thank you. I am sorry for the depth of pain you feel, those difficulties and losses that have been yours lately. Please keep this thought in your heart, that we're always here for you and praying for you too. May God give your dear heart the peace and healing you need and so greatly deserve. God is always with you, just as He promised. hugz, Me

[alwaysmyjennifer]

Laura, although you may sometimes feel like you're in that dark valley alone, girl, you're not. God's promise was written in the Psalms "though I walk through the valley of the shadow ... Thou art with me". He's always right there, just as close as possible. I'm still praying for you, and hoping you get to feeling a bit better soon. hug for a friend, Me, Jenni's dad

[lauraa]

Mark:

Thanks for your thoughts and prayers. I have been down and out this week. I hope no-one else gets this viral thing I have. I think my resistance was low as I had a stressful couple weeks before hand and then my son got it and then POW...it was my turn. It actually and still has me flattened in bed.

My brother is visiting so it didn't turn out for him to be as uplifting as we had hoped. He is leaving tomorrow.

I hope you, Mary and your entire family are doing good. I also hope this is our last snow for the season and we can all get more fresh air.

Always in my thoughts and prayers.

Starchild:

I am thinking and praying for you. Keep talking with all of us here my friend...we are a family! Love you.

[alwaysmyjennifer]

Laura, I'm sorry that you're still feeling so ill. My prayers shall be constantly with you and your children and your brother. Thanx for asking about here, girl. Things are going along still. We're working with a real estate agent to see about a larger home for momma. She needs it for all her medical gear (smiles). I love her soooooo much. She's everything to me. Everything. I must remain a realist about her health, but for as long as possible, I'm going to enjoy the fact that she's home and with me. I love her soooooo much! (such a mushy grandpa, ain't I?) Remember, God is always faithful, always with you. a hug for my friend, Me