Debbie Downer Days...

[DWS]

11 hours ago, foreverhis said:

A few months after John died, I started having weird episodes of burning eye pain, usually more in my right eye and sometimes lasting for several hours, that felt as if someone had poured acid in them (well, how I imagine it would feel).

When I saw my ophthalmologist, he explained that tears from crying, particularly those from stress or grief, are chemically different from our regular eye moisture.  Instead of lubricating and soothing, they're highly saline, contain protein-based hormones, and are abrasive.

I didn't have any pain but did have something strange happen to my right eye as well. Firstly, I developed an eye floater which I had never heard of before I got it. Apparently, it's something that can happen to the aging eye...yay...but when my optometrist did a closer examination, she became concerned with a small retinal tear that she noticed. She arranged an appointment for me to see a laser surgeon. I ended up having minor surgery done to that eye a few months ago. It was quick and successful in repairing the "hole" in my eye but certainly no picnic to go through!

I assumed all of that was likely the result of my grieving tears. Oh....and for a bonus, I also had an inverted eyelash on that same eye. Thankfully, the eye clinic where I was going told me to make an appointment to have it plucked out every 7 or 8 weeks after it grew back. They did this at no charge. I had four visits and now, thankfully after a few months, the damn thing seems to have gone away. Unfortunately, the laser surgery didn't make the eye floater go away so that's mine for keeps I guess. Grief ain't fun!!!

[widower2]

29 minutes ago, Gator M said:

Grief ain't never fun and it appears to be for life.

Technically true, but it changes over time. Gradually it becomes far more manageable for most. 

[widower2]

1 minute ago, Gator M said:

Manageable does not equate to "over", "through" or "done". 

Of course not.

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Most of us will be able to function, tolerate, and "manage" our grief.

Which is all I'm saying  

 

[DWS]

44 minutes ago, Gator M said:

I am not saying "stuck".  That should be addressed by professionals.  But the world needs to understand...love and grief are forever.  (Most non-grievers don't get that)

I think this is where the grief from our loss becomes very trying once some time has passed. We not only have to deal with the absence and the emptiness but also deal with an urging that we somehow have to get past this in order to fit back into the outside world. That's what I tried to address when I started this topic... 

It seems surreal and wrong that so many of us eventually have to fight off feeling any sense of shame or guilt for not moving forward more quickly.  

[KayC]

5 hours ago, widower2 said:

Technically true, but it changes over time. Gradually it becomes far more manageable for most. 

Exactly, it evolves.

[widower2]

7 hours ago, Gator M said:

Most people say this.  Few talk about it being "normal" to have strong feelings of grief years and even decades later.  

"Strong feelings of grief" is a bit vague and people draw their lines in different places about what that might mean, so that's hard to say. My point is that for most, the feelings, as Kay said, evolve, from searing anguish to more of a dull ache. Of course it never goes away, but it becomes less intense. Even then, years later, it's not uncommon to still have those moments. But the moments gradually lessen in both frequency and intensity. 

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One of the main complaints I hear from grievers is that most non-grievers refuse to grasp that.  

Most non-grievers CAN'T grasp that and it's unfair to expect them to. This is something you have to experience to really understand.

 

[widower2]

7 hours ago, DWS said:

It seems surreal and wrong that so many of us eventually have to fight off feeling any sense of shame or guilt for not moving forward more quickly.  

If someone else is imposing that, I'd ignore them (or if they're rude/insensitive enough about it, tell them where to shove it). If someone is imposing that on themselves, I hope the light comes on sooner vs later. I know that this site has helped numerous people that way, as have other sites I'm sure, or perhaps family/friends who are more understanding.

[KayC]

10 hours ago, Gator M said:

even your responses proves my point.

Wow, I think that is a bit unfair to someone who is out YEARS and has time to adjust as much as he could and is trying to help you.  Remember, you are fresher into your grief than us and we have done the grief work...and I've  adjusted as much as possible, which we should.  I do not see anything out of line in his response.

If one goes to a grief counselor and hears them talk about "moving on" (which they never should but mine did) stand up for yourself and ditch them!    ...as I did.  One of the first things I learned early on is to be my own best friend and advocate, now that my George isn't here to do it.  It's hard but important.

[ThereIsAField]

11 hours ago, widower2 said:

 

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One of the main complaints I hear from grievers is that most non-grievers refuse to grasp that.  

Most non-grievers CAN'T grasp that and it's unfair to expect them to. This is something you have to experience to really understand.

I often think that we're way too harsh on non-grievers... because, before this happened to us, we were in that EXACT SAME BOAT. We were non-grievers, too, until we suddenly weren't. And I'm sure I (and everyone else here) made all the same non-griever "mistakes" that we now observe other non-grievers making...

[widower2]

By and large, yes. Most such people who don't react as we feel they should do so out of ignorance, not malicious intent, and I think that's important to try and keep in mind. We're all only human. 

[KayC]

My sisters couldn't "get" how I felt, even though they cared.  One would say totally stupid things to me and even yell at me!  I stood up for myself and took breaks from her.  Peggy always acted understanding, but when Bert died, she got it.  She felt bad that she hadn't before, and I told her not to, that I would rather NO ONE went through this, even as I myself wish I never had to.

[LMR]

1 hour ago, ThereIsAField said:

I often think that we're way too harsh on non-grievers... because, before this happened to us, we were in that EXACT SAME BOAT. We were non-grievers, too, until we suddenly weren't. And I'm sure I (and everyone else here) made all the same non-griever "mistakes" that we now observe other non-grievers making...

Absolutely, I know I am guilty, I didn't know what to say so I said nothing.

1 hour ago, widower2 said:

By and large, yes. Most such people who don't react as we feel they should do so out of ignorance, not malicious intent, and I think that's important to try and keep in mind. We're all only human. 

I always keep that in mind, even when they say something hurtful.

18 minutes ago, KayC said:

My sisters couldn't "get" how I felt, even though they cared.  One would say totally stupid things to me and even yell at me!  I stood up for myself and took breaks from her.  Peggy always acted understanding, but when Bert died, she got it.  She felt bad that she hadn't before, and I told her not to, that I would rather NO ONE went through this, even as I myself wish I never had to.

I don't think my sister gets the depth of my pain but one day she said she was sad that she had never found a true soulmate like I had. That made me feel guilty for having had so much.

[RichS]

1 hour ago, ThereIsAField said:

because, before this happened to us, we were in that EXACT SAME BOAT.

Yes we were; and that's why I've told many who've had losses before me, "Now I feel your pain."

[widower2]

18 minutes ago, LMR said:

I always keep that in mind, even when they say something hurtful.

For me that depends on what is said and how. Even without having experienced such a loss, common sense would dictate at least attempting to understand and sympathize. Saying anything in anger to someone grieving merits a good swift kick in the ass. 

[DWS]

11 hours ago, Gator M said:

My point is many grievers struggle explaining their feeling years after the loss. 

11 hours ago, Gator M said:

It's a common issue at both my bereavement group and my Griefshare group.

I get that and I imagine everyone here does too. It's comforting to my heart to know that it's also an issue that's commonly discussed at your bereavement group. We've lost the one person in this entire world that we were fully connected to. The one whose mind met with ours...or, at least, had a need and commitment to doing that. Having that taken away from us is the greatest loss and sometimes, it takes too much effort to try to explain that again and again and again. This creates a lonely world for us knowing that there isn't another person who totally gets us currently. If we were missing a leg or an arm, most people could grasp how devastating that kind of continuing loss would be. But missing our deepest  heart connection is something that only those who experience this loss can understand. 

[LMR]

I have trouble explaining myself even here, even to myself. I am still bewildered three years in. I am sitting here crying having snuck off to my bedroom explicitly to do so. It is happening a lot the last few weeks. I seem to be on a downward spiral. 

[DWS]

9 minutes ago, Gator M said:

We seldom do that when someone dies.  

Oh I agree if I understand what you're saying. I think we've all witnessed a history of people who have lost their partners and spouses walking around out there functioning and looking like they're doing fine which can be a positive knowing that this loss is survivable...however, that picture can also backfire on those who continually grieve quietly inside...and that could be us or anyone out there who does look like they're doing okay to the outside world. It's crazy and frustrating and unexplainable. Sometimes I ask myself if I would I want to be pitied by others for my loss and have them continually treat me with kid gloves. Sometimes I think "yes, damn it yes!"...but no, I really don't. 

[widower2]

34 minutes ago, LMR said:

I have trouble explaining myself even here, even to myself. I am still bewildered three years in. I am sitting here crying having snuck off to my bedroom explicitly to do so. It is happening a lot the last few weeks. I seem to be on a downward spiral. 

I think most people have those moments, even years later. As I mentioned before though, I think the difference is that over time, they usually (although too gradually for most of our tastes!) dissipate in terms of frequency and severity.

Basically, grieving isn't a start/stop or you do/don't thing. It just manifests itself differently over time and can vary on any given day. 

[RichS]

1 hour ago, LMR said:

I have trouble explaining myself even here, even to myself. I am still bewildered three years in. I am sitting here crying having snuck off to my bedroom explicitly to do so. It is happening a lot the last few weeks. I seem to be on a downward spiral. 

And that is why you're here on this board. All of us are here to support one another; so that we avoid that downward spiral. I'm sure that we all have days where that's how we feel. Stick with all of us on this board. We're all here to help each other.

[widower2]

18 minutes ago, Gator M said:

I think we are talking past each other.

You're trying to encourage grievers saying it gets more tolerable.

Right. Because it does, for most at least.

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I'm trying to say to those who are still struggling that it is common to grieve years later...even forever.  You are not weak or crazy.

Which I haven't disagreed with in any way. It isn't just common to grieve years later, it's a given. It never goes away entirely. You seemed to have missed earlier comments about how it evolves over time. There isn't just this thing called grief which is always the same. 

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IMHO...the older you are and the deeper the love it tends to be harder.  Sudden and tragic death also contributes to this.

Comparing circumstances of a loss and saying this or that kind is harder or not is pointless as it's inherently flawed. Talk to someone young who has just lost the person they thought they were going to spend the rest of their life with about how their loss isn't as hard as someone older and they will likely dismiss that as ridiculous, as they should. Any loss is hard in its own unique way.

[widower2]

1 minute ago, Gator M said:

Maybe harder was the wrong term.  

IMHO...change affects you differently the closer and more involved  the relationship. 

I think this change affects everyone differently. There can be some commonalities of course, but on the whole, it's unique to each person because each person and that relationship was unique. That's why comparisons are pointless.

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Also, older people tend to more affected by drastic change.

In general, I agree. Regarding grief? Not necessarily. Loss of a loved one is massive to anyone regardless of age, again just in different ways. You seem to be getting back to "it's harder when you're older" again...

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Older people tend to enter into new relationships less frequently.

True enough. 

[shawnt]

Losses compound over time, the older you get the more you lose. Being old ain't for sissies(as my grandfather used to say). If you live long enough everyone you loved will be gone.

But I don't think  we ever get better at handling grief.

I think if you never loved deeply of course you won't suffer loss, but what a pointless life. As poorly as I am doing now I do not regret any of the love I have given. ( or received) 

 

[widower2]

  

4 hours ago, Gator M said:

Geez,

Okay, we know every relationship is different.  Thus, everyone's grief is different.  I am not comparing.  I was posting information from several YouTubes and GriefShare.  I was posting "generalities."

"more affected by drastic change" is a comparison, even if a general one.

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Regarding grief...Maybe the pain is the same

Except it's not; that isn't what I meant. It isn't necessarily harder, or easier, or the same, even for any demographic group and generally speaking, because it's too complex; there are too many factors in play.

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but the secondary issues from grief statistically "tend" to impact the elderly more harshly: Loneliness, Isolation,

There are no statistics that show elderly people feel more lonely or isolated than younger people losing a partner, because that's not something you can reliably measure. Basically everyone feels lonely and isolated when they lose a partner. Is this person more lonely than that one? This group more than that? Again, impossible to measure.

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Loss of income (Especially if you are on a fixed income), health issues COMPOUNDED by stress, Even DEATH rates.   These are FACTS.   

? Most younger people suffer loss of income too, and many of them have additional mouths to feed, house payments to make that the elderly don't, etc. Again: "it's complicated."

Health issues being compounded by stress brought on by grief I question is any worse for elderly vs younger people. As for death, well older people do tend to die...it may sound in some way romantic or touching to say "they died of a broken heart," but that doesn't make it fact either.

We should also take into account the issues affecting younger people more than old, like many more years mourning that loss, of perhaps never finding love again and spending the rest of their lives alone, of being a single parent, which is incredibly hard in general, never mind while having to deal with grief at the same time, etc etc. Of course, these are also generalities which aren't always true, so again I'm back to feeling that such generalities are pointless. The devil's in the details.

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, shawnt said:

I think if you never loved deeply of course you won't suffer loss, but what a pointless life. 

...which in itself is a huge loss. Better to have loved and lost and all that.

[Sar123]

It’s true that people who have never lost a loved one do not know what it’s like- how can you? I wasn’t good at it because I had never been through it.  Take my sisters- neither have lost a spouse. Sister # 1 has not been there for me while sister #2 has. After I told her nights were the worst for me last winter, she would call me every evening and she would have my dog and me spend the night at her house occasionally. She was also there for my husband and me during his chemo and illness which included making us dinners. Sister #1 would call once in a while and it was always about her. She never offered any help and hasn’t had me over once since his death or invited me out to a movie or lunch. I think some people are better at helping family members or good friends during grief while others simply don’t know what to do so they do nothing. 

[widower2]

2 hours ago, Gator M said:

You win.

Uncle, uncle.

 

hah - nah. No winning or losing here. Just IMO

 

10 minutes ago, Sar123 said:

I think some people are better at helping family members or good friends during grief while others simply don’t know what to do so they do nothing. 

Sadly, yes. I have long thought HS kids should have a mandatory "social graces" class of some kind and part of the time is spent on giving them a clue about those grieving.

[Roxeanne]

23 hours ago, ThereIsAField said:

I often think that we're way too harsh on non-grievers... because, before this happened to us, we were in that EXACT SAME BOAT.

I agree...i remember some embarrassing moment with a collegue who lost her young husband!

And it is true that you can't imagine what grief is until you are in!

I said it before but it is a clear example: one of my friend said to me when i was in raw grief.."don't think at the past....think at the future!" I was hurt by her words, how can you forget the love of your life ????

Now she lost her husband and she is desperate, unable to think at the future...regret the past every day!

I am aware now how terrible grief is, that a silent closeness is better than any words!

[Gail 8588]

I'm very down. A very good friend of ours died suddenly Thursday night while on a business trip out of state.  I got a call at 2:00 am Friday that he had died about an hour before in Arizona. His wife was in Gainesville to be with their son while their DIL had complicated surgery scheduled for Friday morning. 

By 2:30 am my good friend here in Tallahassee (also a close friend of this couple) and I were driving to Gainesville.  I went to the hospital with the young couple having surgery and my Tallahassee friend drove the new widow to her home in West Palm Beach.

The new widow is really in shock.  I am devastated for her.

Her family is pouring in from out of state. Her daughter from Cleveland arrived last night. So my friend is flying back from WPB today. I'll get her at the airport. 

The surgery went well. So that was good. I was glad to be with their son for the 5 hour surgery.

It all just breaks my heart. 

[KayC]

Gail, I'm glad she has you and her daughter coming, she's undoubtedly in shock, it will help her to have you when everyone has left, someone who understands.  I remember when my sister that lived here went through it.  It helped that I got it and knew what she was going through.  BTW, it's three years today that Bert, my BIL of 50 years, passed.

[foreverhis]

On 9/16/2023 at 5:45 AM, shawnt said:

I still cry every day, it is exhausting and makes it hard to drive. Still have my eyelashes but do need drops some days. I also didn't know there was different tears.

I count myself lucky to have an excellent ophthalmologist.  He is thorough and explains what he’s doing and why. He speaks in plain, but not “dumbed down,” language. He shows me the images of the inside of my eyes so I can see what he sees. John’s ophthalmologist from the same practice saved his vision after his bicycling accident by taking what John said was happening seriously and performing two laser surgeries (one emergency basis).

[foreverhis]

@Gail 8588  Gail, I'm so sorry you are going through another loss.  What a wonderful friend you are, and your other friend as well.  It's so comforting to have someone in our lives that we know we can call at 2 am and they'll be there for us.  When a friend's husband died suddenly out of state a bit more than a year ago, two of our other friends dropped everything, cancelled plans, packed up, and drove her hundreds of miles, stayed with her for a week, and would do it again in a heartbeat for any of our friends group.  When John died, our brother- and sister-by-choice had the car packed in less than 2 hours and were on the road as soon as they could be here, even before my bio sister and BIL.  And through the decades, we've been there for them as they've been there for us.  It's not something I take for granted.

I pray for you all to have comfort and the strength needed to get through these first so painful weeks.

 

On an unrelated note, I have a tiny downer of my own from a while ago.  Just when you think you've got all the legal stuff handled after 5+ years, here comes a little stab to the heart.  I decided to register online with the water company because it's the only bill we still get by mail every month.  As I went to do that, I realized it's also the one thing I never switched out of John's name. 

I called the 24 CS line and spoke to a very lovely representative who went through the process of switching with me, explained that I'd receive a "closing" bill in John's name, and told me not to pay the regular bill because I'd be double paying.  She was very kind and did two things I always appreciate.  First, she gave me her condolences and second, she did not end the call with "Have a nice evening (day)."

But still, there's that little moment of pain even after years have gone by because each switch from his name to mine hurts.  It's a reason the house deed and title still has his name on them, though the county now puts "Heirs of" before his name.  I know I need to get the house into a trust because it's the one remaining thing that would for sure make my sister have to go through probate.  My parents made sure we didn't have to for them by putting direct beneficiaries and transfer-on-death on their small estate and my mom added me and John to the title of their mobile home as JTRS, so that was easy.  My sister looked at me and said, "Don't you dare make me go through probate!  I'll do it, but I'll be cursing silently and be really mad at you!"  I guess I'd better find an affordable attorney to set up the trust.

Anyway, it's weird how those unexpected moments can still throw me off balance for a little while.

[KayC]

I wish you luck with it...probate is truly the worst as we're finding with my sister's estate.  
I think of all John went through and wonder how he's doing, how is son is...

[shawnt]

That truly sucks. At least you have some plans , you will be in hold for the next 2 days. Sorry.

[KayC]

My bank mailed me my card when it had to be canceled and it took ten business days to get it, maybe see if going IN to the bank will speed things up.  I am so sorry, no fun!

[widower2]

ouch. Sorry to hear that...

[shawnt]

Some days I need her embrace so bad I can't catch my breath. 

[Sheilz]

4 hours ago, shawnt said:

Some days I need her embrace so bad I can't catch my breath. 

Me.  So sad today.  Wish he was here to embrace me & tell me it's going to be alright someday.  

[KayC]

It is so much as our lives are now...

[WithoutHer]

5 hours ago, Gator M said:

Again.. Is this living?

Or existing?

For me it is existing. Life is not a happy place although I will go on with all this loneliness. What others are doing to address that doesn't work for me.

[widower2]

39 minutes ago, WithoutHer said:

For me it is existing. Life is not a happy place although I will go on with all this loneliness. What others are doing to address that doesn't work for me.

At the risk of sounding like a pollyanna, don't give up hope or assume it will always be that way. You're still, generally speaking, somewhat early in the grieving process (believe it or not). 

[Sar123]

I’m dreading October. It will be 2 years in October that my husband found out he had a mass on his pancreas and our lives were forever changed in that moment. I remember coming home from work that sunny and warm Friday afternoon and seeing him sitting on the porch with our dog. He said his doctor had called and the C-T scan had shown a mass on his pancreas and to schedule an appointment with him on Tuesday. How nice of his doctor  dropped that bomb on us for the weekend. The same doctor who told him in June that his symptoms were just due to old age (he was 65). 
 

I’m missing him so much and feel so alone right now. I did make an appointment with a grief counselor scheduled next week so maybe she can help me through this rough patch. 

[KayC]

8 hours ago, Sar123 said:

I did make an appointment with a grief counselor scheduled next week so maybe she can help me through this rough patch.

I hope so too, 

[shawnt]

Every positive step forward I take leaves me with the feeling I am leaving the old me behind and the distance between before and now gets bigger and somehow that makes me sad, I can't explain it any better.I only know it hurts.

[KayC]

An article much like this one helped me when I was going through that...
Smile Permission

[KayC]

All we can do is keep trying.  You think it wasn't hard for me after George died to go to church, on the platform and look out over the congregation and see the spot where he used to be?!  It hurt like hell, but I kept going.  Or going to a restaurant alone?

[KayC]

That's up to you to discover yet, it took me ten years.

[KayC]

You know you can't compare to someone else's timeline, maybe I'm just slow.

[Rey Dominguez Jr]

A lot of the comments here over that last couple of days have stuck with me.  The last week was a rough one ever since I have been hit with the realization that there is nothing to look forward to without Veronica, no plans to make, no new adventures to explore.  I feel stuck.  As Gator mentioned previously, I am not really living, more existing, day-to-day, with no real purpose since Veronica passed.  I understand it will take some time to figure out what me new purpose in life is, but in the meantime, just existing does not seem meaningful.  At some point, this reality will slowly morph into something new and, perhaps, wonderful, but the here and now is not pleasant.  It is painful and sad.  I embrace my grief but I don't want to be paralyzed by it.  Not sure how to avoid that paralysis.  

[KayC]

1 hour ago, Gator M said:

It took @KayC 10 years. 

No...it took me that long to find my purpose, namely helping with grief.  Now I have the added bonus of helping with diabetic groups, researching and finding answers.

It took me about five years to be at peace with being alone and not trying to find a substitute in the wrong place.  There is no substitute, only learning to live with it and be at peace.  I am.

22 hours ago, Gator M said:

but for what purpose.

 

21 hours ago, KayC said:

That's up to you to discover yet, it took me ten years.

 

[KayC]

I was at peace at 5 years, it took ten years to find my purpose, big difference esp. when saying that to those newer in grief.

[widower2]

3 hours ago, Gator M said:

@Rey Dominguez Jr

This is where I am.  The emptiness, the loneliness, the apathy is haunting.  It seems the more I do, the more I realize this is it.  My house/arbitration situation does not help. 

I guess it depends what you mean by "it." Of course it's impossible for me or anyone to know, but typically over time things do improve, so it likely won't be as bad as it is now, esp with this huge extra thing with your house hanging over your head. I similarly had huge additional things to deal with after the loss which was like salt being poured in the wound. but eventually (finally) they got resolved. I wouldn't say my life is a big picnic, but it's much better now than it was in those earlier times.