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Loss of an Adult Child


momofJustin

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MSMOM-----I'm sorry for your loss of your dear son.  I am glad that you came to this site.

As you can see----it is a large & busy site.  Please come back and tell us more about your

dear son....You are already a part of this place where everyone knows and understands

the sorrow and all the ups & downs of the grief road.  We are all on different  timelines

after our loss, and not matter where we are on the timeline, each has something valuable

to offer in support of anyone who just comes onto the site. Wishing you peace.

 

Dee----This weather is getting OLD.......isn't it?  Spring is what we need! :)

 

Shannon-----I so get what you mean about someone telling you of 'someone else' who

has suffered a loss of a child and has somehow 'snapped back' and that you, too, will

be able to do the same.  There is a LOT of assumption when someone offers this advice.

The idea that 'you are young'.....etc.  is not relevant, really.  I was young when I lost my'

baby Lisa, and remember so well, people telling me nearly the same thing.  The loss of

a child is devastating.....no matter HOW old you are.....young or old....Or anywhere in

between .  I've lost my kids at both stages, and there's no way it is any harder or easier

for the stages.  You have had a very heavy losses in your life, and you have to walk the

grief road in your own way and time.....No one else can assume that they know better, how

you should deal with your grief. I am wishing you peace & comfort as I know you have had

such a hard time. Prayers for you, friend.

 

Sandy---Good to see your post.  It will be nice when you can get the little Sheltie dog for

your husband. It will be such a good companion, and lift his spirits. Glad to hear that he

is feeling a bit better.  Take care.

 

Wanda-----I know that banks can be so difficult.  They sure make you jump through hoops,

it seems.  Hope that you can get it all straightened out soon. That stuff is an aggravation

that you don't need at this time.  Peace to you.

 

 

Kate-----

Yep---when January is over, we begin to have hopes of spring. On these cold, snowy

days....it's fun to just sit and look at all the seed catalogs coming in......with a good cup of

coffee or tea too.

 

Billi----I'm sorry for your loss of your dear daughter.  Also, sorry that your grandson's father

is so strict about letting him talk to you......especially on the boy's birthday.....a special day

for a child.  I do hope that you will keep coming to this site. It has been a lifeline for many

parents here.  Tell us more about your daughter,.....when you are ready, of course.  There

are no 'rules' here. Everyone reads/posts as they feel that they wish to.  Everyone understands

the sorrow of losing a beloved child.  Wishing you peace.

 

Jan----Thanks for posting the pictures that Meagan made. So lovely.

 

Wade-----We don't farm the land......we rent it out to a farmer who lives near us. We do, however,

live in a rural area with farms all around us.  Many farms, few houses......but not remote.  thanks

for the poem....very heartfelt. I like what you said about getting to know Brooke's new friends.

It has often been said here, that we feel that all our angels are friends in their heavenly home.

 

     Davey&Lisasmom,    Sherry

   

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Wanda, I agree with the others. A death certificate is all they should require. All we had to provide to anyone was  a death certificate and everything went smoothly. Good luck. Don't let them push you! Glad your sister is helping you with this. I remember Carol also had some issues after Ralph died and her daughter came to bat to help her out. I agree that when you are not thinking clearly that you can be put into a  position of being taken advantage of.

 

I have been reading all posts and just wanted to say to those that are having a particularly hard time right now that I am thinking of you and sure wish we all lived closer to perhaps get together for an occasional coffee. That first couple of years is just so hard to get through, One step forward and two back. It does help to talk about the kids for sure. Just remember that everyone has ideas of how to handle it that have not gone through this. Go with your instinct. While most of them have every good intention they can not possibly relate to the actual situation. This is your call at all times. Don't let others push you into hurrying along. We all go about it differently. Take as much time as you need.

 

Wade, I really like your poem to Brooks. Also, the Jets are hot right now. Sure hope it stays this way! As to the weather? Don't ask. It is still too cold for my liking. I saw a picture of the mountains in the background where Brooks played baseball. What a beautiful setting.

 

Sherry, yes...I am enjoying looking through the catalogues. My mind is definitely on getting back into my garden again. I just bought a lovely orchid this past weekend. As I have never had much luck being able to get them to bloom again I hope someone here can help me out. Lora...you mentioned your grandparents had owned a greenhouse. Do you have a green thumb? Any ideas of how to keep this plant going?

 

Susan...did you get that cold front as far south as Texas? Quite the winter. Makes it easy to cocoon.  

 

Sending love and warm thoughts to everyone. Hold on. Kate

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Guest Trista's_Mom

I've had issues with Trista's 'estate' as well. She was only 17 years old however when I went to renew the tags on her car which had expired, and I had the certificate and all the paperwork, they told me I would have to go to the courthouse to get something showing I am executor of the estate. I don't understand that as she was a minor and I am her mother.

To Billi and MsMom,

Welcome to the group. This is a good place. We are all dealing with the loss of a precious Child. We understand, listen, and share are journeys and our Children. There is a lot of compassion here and some who have been here longer are very good to reach a hand out to those of us newer to this. I lost my 17 year old Daughter, Trista, on June 1, 2013. She was killed when her friend pulled out in front of a tanker truck. I miss her so very much.

Dee and Sherri,

Thank you both for your kind words. I know that age has nothing to do with the pain of this loss. I can't even say people mean it in that way. I will admit my perception is different now.

I read into things a lot. I'm hypersensitive. It's like walking around with no skin for protection, just raw nerves exposed, and even a subtle change in the wind can cause agony. My sister is suffering as well and would never purposely hurt me. The other day we were talking and she asked how I was. I was honest and said, not so good. She said, "It's been a long a winter. I'm sure you'll feel better in the spring." It took all I had not to say, "Oh, is Trista coming back in spring?" That would have been very hurtful to her though and I know that's not what she meant and she was trying to help. It has been a long winter and I am ready for spring. No one knows what to say. My husband has started asking again, 'what's wrong?' when he sees tears. He didn't for a long time. He knew. Now, it's as if somehow I've passed some invisible marker, that I was completely unaware of, and now I have to have a reason for my tears beyond the fact that my Girl is gone.

Wade,

Your poem brought tears to my eyes. Such love from a Father's heart. I know Brooks feels that love you send him. I know he does.

Wanda,

I assumed it may have been your autocorrect. Trista is not a recognized name. My iphone didn't recognize it at first but after me correcting it so many times it now does. I appreciated that you had thought of her. I think a wall with pictures and that quote would be beautiful. I'm also still struggling with lots of anxiety. Keeping you in my thoughts.

Susan,

I find that it is very hard sometimes to watch the videos and other times I need to. I agree, it's just the nature of grief. We have to do what we can when we can.

Jan,

Thank you for sharing Meagan's family picture. I love kids artwork. Like Susan, I saved everything. I have tubs and tubs. It's always been a future project to sort it all. I've some I want to frame and others to put in books for each Child. It seems very important now to get it done. I've started with Trista's and all those treasures are so priceless. In Meagan's picture we see her love of her family. Thank you for sharing it.

Kate,

How is Ross? You may have updated but I missed it. I hope you both are keeping warm.

We got more snow and ice and another day out of school for Zak. The Governor is asking to have the number of calamity days raised as almost all schools have gone over and the kids will have to go into the summer. Most schools are using 'blizzard bags' or e-days (done online) to make up for lost school days but as of now they only get 3 of those and we are now past that too.

I'm missing my Girl so so much. I just want to hold her hand, hug her.

I love you, Trista Mae.

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Mermaid Tears

Shannon....I hope you remember....and all that are on this site...

This is your 'movie'....you are the Star of this....you are also the producer, director and in charge of all the showings.....and you are also the 'hero' in your book....yes...this has been the 'winter of our discontent'....and even here....we awoke to a light dusting of all that 'white stuff'....amazing for our part of Texas....and yes....I am 'hunkering down'....and 'cocooning'....

    We all have family and friends that will say 'something'...and it won't fit...or sound right...

and yes....I think we lose a very invisible shield....when we lose a child...and we feel so naked and 'raw'...

  I am thinking it is part of the process of us becoming 'someone else' or 'another person'...there is some kind of transformation that I have not figured out....(as soon as I have an inkling...I will report what I find)...it is like....'where did I leave myself' at ?

  We see different....hear different...walk different...talk different....

I simply don't think we can go through this pain and grief without becoming another person....

   Oh yes....there are many people that think that if you are young...you can just have another baby...but you can fill up your backyard with other children...and they will never replace your Trista...you know that...we know that....and you will just have to 'let go' of the people that believe that. Just let them go.

    I will say this....yes....I have known parents that have lost a child...and they then have other children...I so admire them...they are amazing people....but we know...they aren't trying to 'replace' that child they lost....no....they are picking up the pieces of their broken shattered hearts...and marching forth...in faith and in love...and in grace. Bless them.

    You own your tears...you let them go whenever you want to...that is a natural part of the grief journey.

     I know that you will create something so sweet and unique with all of Trista's artwork....hey...maybe you can create a book that uses her art....some kind of Trista story..mystical and magical...hang on with both hands ...you are doing good...

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Jesse David & Taylor Mom

I've had issues with Trista's 'estate' as well. She was only 17 years old however when I went to renew the tags on her car which had expired, and I had the certificate and all the paperwork, they told me I would have to go to the courthouse to get something showing I am executor of the estate. I don't understand that as she was a minor and I am her mother.

Most legal things we were able to complete with just the death certificate. However, there was one bank account that we had to be formally named the "executor of the estate" for. We went to the courthouse and we completed a brief form with application fee...I think we brought the death certificate. We also did this process when my brother in law died in Colorado to gain access to some of his accounts.

In our state, this county department is called the "Register in Probate" They may even have the forms online that you can download first to complete. (Ours does) The bank or probate office should be able to give you the name of the form that is needed...most of the time the completed form has to be notarized as well.

Example from our state http://www.wripa.org/probate.html

 

Hope this helps, the legal stuff is hard to do when your mind and heart hurts so...

 

*********************************************

 

Sherry, what you wrote is so well said,

"you have to walk the grief road in your own way and time.....No one else can assume that they know better, how you should deal with your grief."

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Mermaid Tears

Thank you once again Laurie...for sharing your knowledge and resources...

as many have stated...their minds are already in a fog...and a little enlightenment goes a long way...with all the confusion of paper work and red tape...

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I too had problems with estates and such I had to go file for executorship ,why I don't know he had no life insurance no money or anything of value to worry about.they charged to file then give you a huge packet of papers you are supposed to fill out and return within 2 years.needless to say I could not open that packet again,no way I can fill that stuff out.i cry enough already.shortly after the 2 year mark when my son died a lawyer for the probate court stated sending letters because I hadn't returned the forms,do they have nothing better to do then torture grieving parents there is no estate.i am not answering them ,let them come arrest me.

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Shannon,

I had to comment about your husband asking you "what is wrong" when he sees tears.

My husband did that also and My comment was "what do you think is wrong, I no longer recognize the world I am in and I want my son back, Please do not ask me that again"

My reply was much more forceful than written above and I did apologize after my eruption, but he did not ask me "what's wrong" again for a long time.

I am not suggesting you erupt like I did, but perhaps he does not realize how long and deeply this will affect you?

It has been 5.5 years for us and the tears have reduced, so now I get the "what's wrong" question, but it does not hurt as much now.

Colleen, Brian's Mom 4 ever

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Mermaid Tears

Colleen....you did that for survival...you were once again the 'Mama Bear protecting her cub'....but you were protecting the right to weep in memory of your child....I can so relate...and I am sure many will do the same...

  I have stated before....this grief is mine...I am possessive of it...this is the grief for my child....leave me alone.

 

Now...after all these years....why do they ask ? It is still a part of the fabric of our lives...our child..our grief...

 

 

Steve's Mom....you are doing good...and you are right...I think instead of using common sense...the lunatics are all about pushing the papers...when a teenager...child passes....what do they have ? They only leave behind things that are sacred to the parents...

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Hi All,

Thank you dear ladies for your kind words on my husband's idea of the candle in our window for Lori. At night time it looks really pretty up in the window from our street. We have a switch downstairs in the garage that we can operate it from.

MsMom and Billi - I am so sorry for the loss of your children. I lost my daughter, Lori, in a car accident. She was 34 years old, my only child and best friend. It's been nearly 10 years. There is so much love, support and understanding on this site. Be gentle with yourself and know that there are many caring parents here that truly feel your pain.

Wishing everyone a peaceful evening.......

Pat

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Mermaid Tears

Lora...I always get a bit of 'comfort' from your words...and always get a bit of 'knowledge' from you...and always feel as if...what I do...it is ok....what I don't do...it is ok, too....

you help me level out...

but from you and Dee....that has always been the 'unconditional' way....that you tell me....for where I go..or why....it is 'ok'....thank you

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Wanda....because of Lane's age...would not a Death Certificate be enough ?

You would think it would be, the check for the benefits is made out to the estate of Lane Antosh, in order to deposit the check, you need an estate account to put the money in, in order to have an estate account, you need an executor, in order to have an executor, you need a will, which he doesn't have because he is only 17! It is the craziest thing i have ever heard. The bank was demanding i get a letter of administration, which would name me executor, but i cant because you can only get one if he has a will. but  he doesn't have because he is only 17! I am not sure what the next step is. I have seen a lawyer,  it will cost me $2500 for the lawyer to probate a non existing will, and then i have to petition the courts for probate for a non existing will!! for another $2000, and the benefit money is not that much. 

it just adds to everything...

 

Thank you all for your advise, and sharing, it seems most have run into red tape when it comes to this.

It would just be nice to have someone say, Hey its ok, we will put the check thru and deposit the money for your daughters university and student loans. No worries.

That is really all i want it for, to help her out, its not enough to do much else with. But it would help her out. 

 

Oh i am rambling again.

 

Time for bed, i am beat, sleeping does not come easy, when my mind is full of stuff...

 

Wishing you all sweet dreams of our much loved, terribly missed kids

 

Wanda

 

love you so much Lane....

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Saw this on my FB page.  One of my ex-students has a sister who lost her young son a few years ago, and it is his angelversary today.  I thought this hit it right on the head.

 

You lost a child. You have a mourning period of at least forever allowed, no questions asked. Your tears and pain are your son waking up in your heart, where he lives always and forever, and waving at you. He loves you mommy. And he's keeping you and sissy safe. I'm so so sorry for your loss. No body, NO ONE, should have to feel that pain.

 

Anyway...thinking of all of you...hoping this weekend brings a lot of peace.

 

Msmom...

 

So sorry for your loss.  You have come to a good site.  Let us know about your son.

 

Heard this on a TV show tonight.

 

To love another person is to see the face of God.

 

Our children are truly in that place.

 

I'm finally going to turn Brooks' phone off.  No reason to keep paying for it anymore.  I think I will ask all his friends to send one more text to him, though.  Just one more...

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Hi All, I tried to copy/paste my story (long) from yesterday's post to new topic but it won't paste after numerous attempts using different methods. So if you don't mind, can you read it there. It's posted as topic labeled Loss of AYA(Adolescent/Young Adult).

 

I am so upset with myself. I'm a person who believes in telling people what you want, communicating with each other so we can meet each other's needs. So even though my grief is keeping me in my pjs most days, I had the forethought when our son passed away to email friends what we were going to be doing, not doing, how best to support us. In essence it said we don't want visitors as I did not want to be distracted hearing people chattering or trying to chat w/ me when I needed to grieve. I know that it is almost non-existent a person who can just sit and be quiet.  Then I started to let people come by. But I still told them only if they want to come and hug and listen. Told them I can't hear them talk about their kids. Well today I made a huge mistake. I let an old friend come by. After she listened she proceeded to tell me about her son's wedding plans (our boys are same age, grew up together), vacation w/fiancé proposal, etc. I am stunned at peoples insensitivity and disregard for the boundaries I already put up. I was clear. 

 

To make matters worse, I missed my time to chat w/ other parents who also have no surviving children that only happens once a week (another site). I needed to ask them, how do you go on without  your child when you didn't choose to live a life not having children and therefore we all had our future shattered- no kids or grans in our future (if child died before having them like mine). I'm so upset with myself that I let her come here. I'm so upset that she revealed to me in my time of need how heartless. Selfish really - she needed me to be there for her. It felt like she was putting it in my face. So not only did she make me feel worse but I gave away my time to help myself w/ other s who get it! So mad. I am beginning to see now how others say they lost their friends because they just couldn't be with them.

 

Im feeling so hopeless. I can come on here, chat rooms all day and night but not going to change my future - my son is gone.

BTW, when you read my story there is lots missing. No support from husband emotionally - detached. Plus, I know my son mistreated me because he just didn't have the coping skills he needed or the maturity that comes with being older. I don't hold anger towards him for it. Not to say it wasn't grueling going through it or that I didn't stand up for myself. I did but it never changed for too many reasons to type here. The only time he didn't mistreat me was towards the end when I was giving him almost 24/7 care for the last 2 months. His girlfriend abandoned him cruelly (unbelievable narcissist) in his greatest time of need, forcing him to see how selfish she was and that it was all for show and her needs (she used him) so he died realizing the truth: that she had never come for a surgery, chemo, even said she couldn't come see him once after a huge surgery because "she got off work early and made dinner plans w/ friends instead". He had to realize that he had ditched me 3 x on my birthday, ditched us every opp to celebrate anything to be with her and her family and her needs all the while we were caring for him (we moved to do this). He died realizing "omg, my mom never left my side and I mistreated her this whole time for someone I thought loved me and has left me for dead."  sadly, there is no consoling for this. it's all just so tragic. and there is so much more to it. I have a friend who lost a child who said to me before he died " she might be gone but I feel more sorry for you as we had each other. she was grateful. it brought us closer". I get that on these sites as well. so I'm already in the isolation of this club of parents who lost children that the outside world doesn't get but then within this club im more isolated because I had so many cojmpounding issues and tortured for so long. and now tortured forever without being able to look back and say "look at the legacy he left, look at what a good son he was to you, look at.....". I don't have any of that. he died w/ shame and sadness and disbelief for all that happened and that he would not get to make it right. Hours before he died I told him I forgave him, asked him to forgive me, I loved him and knew he loved me. And that he could go if he needed to or was ready. I still can't believe he's gone. I can't believe that after raising him all those years I am not going to get the reward of having him mature to 25+ where he would have emotionally grown to be the man he was meant to be with all the lessons I taught him, living a life towards service, gratitude, honesty, character. That is the cruelty of losihg a child during adolescence. We raise our kids for 21 years looking forward to reaping that reward. It was stolen from me. I feel so violated.

 

thank you all. long one but now you know some of my story. oh, how do I cope? not well. but I don't expect myself to cope well now. too soon. I expect to be home grieving and allowing myself this time to do that. hugs to you all for your losses as well. so glad to have found you. wonderfully supportive group.

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Hello, I am new, signed up a couple of weeks ago. I was in the chat room and it was just some ladies having some fun small talk, so I left.

Lost my 32 yr old daughter 11/13/13, she died in my arms, the sound of her last breath goes over my mind all the time.

Today was her 11 year old sons Birthday, and he is such a joy. I didnt even get to speak to him. I called and called, text, email, face time. His dad just wouldnt let it happen. My daughter left him 4 yrs ago and he is still so controlling and mean as can be. He did finally emailed me back and said my grandson is grounded and cant talk. Grounded for make a C. Wow, and its he Birthday and he couldnt let me say Happy Birthday to my grandson, a part of my daughter.

Today is the 3rd day I have not got out of bed. I have been to 2 Grief counselor, loved the 1st one. But both are so busy, they have no appointments or call you back. Then dont see a new patient if you not gonna have time for them.

My husband cant understand my grief. No one can, no one is around any more, they were when she 1st passed and now I dont hear from anyone.

So why am I still here? Lost my wonderful daughter/best friend. My grandson lives 3 hours away and I dont get to barely talk to him. My husband stays mad at me for being so down. So do I stay or do I go. Someone just asked me 2 days ago how would I do it. Sleeping pills, thats easy. I could be with my daughter. I think. I now question God, he left my grandkids without a Mommy.

Sorry this is long and in a mumble jam. I have tried to find support groups and just cant seem to find one that understands.

I have attached a photo of my daughter with my birthday grandson

I hope everyone on here have a blessed day and hugs to all

Oh I feel the same way and have foud friends here that will undestand what you are going through so keep coming here for comfort and understanding

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Snowing here today in Oregon. These are the times I miss Nick so much he loved to play in the snow. We took out the quad and rode down the street in his honor today I cried most of the time I was riding.

 

The next photo is were Nicks life ended that night and the the cross at the site in the snow today.

 

DSC 0081

 

 

wintercross

 
 
And for thouse who are newer than I am welcome the people here and carring and will understand you and you can tell them anything and they will not judge you for it .
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Mermaid Tears

TBear...thanks for sharing the photos.....in a long ago post I wrote that the roadside memorials have an impact on my heart like never before....we can only hope they can create a 'pause' and people will slow down...and drive safer....

  Your tears are yours....your grief is yours...I think it is very, very normal to let them flow...I would think if we try to stop the tears...the grief will swell up inside and cause numerous health/physical issues....that is Mother Natures way of natural grieving...your posting reminded me of a song that is so dear to my heart...'I Drive Your Truck'....I am not savvy enough to post the song....maybe Laurie or Wade can do that for you....you driving the quad in your SONshine boys honor.....small things become such sacred things.....and that is the way it should be....keep doing whatever you want for your boy....all of us on this site do the same....we do things to honor our children...

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Mermaid Tears

MsMom.....I did go and find your other posting....and many on this site can relate to all you have wrote...I am going to post something to you later....first...I have to get my thoughts lined up...for all of us 'here' are here to 'hear' you and reach out to you....I am going to try and copy/paste something I wrote a long time ago....

 

 

Sorry....for some reason I can't post it....it is in my Documents folder....and my smart husband is not sitting by ....anyway....keep yourself wrapped in a warm blanket...you are at the beginning of the grief journey...and it is just so darn hard...

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Mermaid Tears

MsMom.....I can tell you that your desire to stay in your pj's all day....is one of the best things you can do for yourself...grief is very dark and heavy...and many will relate to our instinct to 'cocoon'.....I certainly did...and still do to a certain extent...but that is a part of what we call 'self care'.....this is a time to be very, very kind and gentle to yourself...and for sure...you have on what I call the 'shock suit'.....and that is simply a survivor thing....and many are like you....they did not want 'people' around...I didn't....but I have been raised to 'greet and be a hostess' to anyone coming through my front door.....and I simply was too exhausted to play hostess....

  so....that is normal....very normal....

Yes....many have had dear friends and family to say very hurtful or ill timed things....and that is normal, too....we simply have to know that they 'just don't know'.....I think they are ignorant....not mean....they just haven't walked in our shoes....

   Many have 'issues' they have to deal with...besides the heavy grief....it is better to be able to just deal with one thing at a time....but that is not a choice some have....and before we lost our child....we could handle everything with balance and clarity....but grief puts us in a place where the mind cannot focus...and everyday occurrences that we could take in stride will put us into an emotional downfall....

  Let us hear about your boy....I have 1 daughter and 5 sons...John David was the oldest son.....I wish I had a quarter for everytime my children broke my heart.....but...I had to understand that the young do what the young will do...a lot of forgiveness for them...I knew that the mistakes they made...would then be experience...and experience creates wisdom...I was raised by a family that was very loving and liberal...and I made a lot of mistakes...bad choices...bad roads...and I had to let my children do the same...

  I can only imagine how hard for you to see cancer taking your boy each and every day....your grief journey will be as unique as your child was unique....let us hear...

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Lora, good to see you though I am sorry you feel so tired. I am happy that you took a day to just be. I think that you work very hard and the weather has put obstacles in your way to add to it. I heard that PA was hit very heavily the other day. We received 7 inches but we heard that parts of your state saw 12 or more. I have noticed that my body is tired this week, the cold really affects us in ways we have not had to test in a long while. This many sub-zero days plays a role in being tired. I can't get out to walk, which decreases the amount of exercise for me but also the amount of Vitamin D. Takes its toll, plus when I walk, my brain gets to wander, so I am without too much wander time this week as it has been below zero each morning for 3 in a row, and not much above 4 degrees in the afternoon. You work two jobs and you visit your brother and have that to think of as well. It is exhausting when we worry about someone we love. Shine like like a diamond by Rihana has been playing over and over in my head today, and then you saw the diamond like glisten of snow on Cara. I will post that song later.

 

Susan, you give good strong words to those new here. All of our dates near our Child's photo let the New Members here see how long we have been dealing in grief and I think it is a wonderful thing for them to be able to see this and then hear the words of those still on the start of their path be able to reach out to those even newer. I think that when I reached out the first time to someone newer than I to grief, in that early time of grief, I felt some kind of puzzle piece slip into place. I felt like there was something I could do, we all could do, for that next parent that comes. That full circle of loss and anguish to first steps and actually helping is an amazing piece of everyone's journey here.

 

 

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And they do, they shine bright like a diamond, our Angels. So bright.

 

My Son and his lovely wife and their beautiful Daughter are going out to Boston tonight, to attend the celebration of life for my Brother in law, Jonathan's uncle John. My sis in law's husband died in November but wanted to do a memorial rather than a funeral. So the kids are going out there and from there will fly out to Florida for a nice little vacation. Good time of year to do so. Prayers for a safe journey.

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And there you are Ted, reaching out to those here newer than you. So good of you. I hear you guys got a lot of snow yesterday, stay safe and warm.

 

MS MOM, i am sorry for the terrible sadness and the anguish you are feeling combined with the feeling of being cast adrift by those old friends that cannot help but talk about the life they are still having when the life you had is not here. You will build a life but it can't happen now as you know. You need to grieve, to allow grief to roll you down as sometimes resisting that is futile and we get overtired trying that anyway. We have to go through grief so that one day we can stand in the light of our Children and say " hey Kiddo, I am doing my best to carry on ".

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Jesse David & Taylor Mom

From Wade's post..."I'm finally going to turn Brooks' phone off.  No reason to keep paying for it anymore.  I think I will ask all his friends to send one more text to him, though.  Just one more..."

Wade, I had recorded my son's phone greeting...you may consider doing this before it is shut off. I used Audacity (freeware) and a microphone attached to my computer...I am keeping the WAV file in several different locations....

The FB post spoke to the heart...thanks for sharing...

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Wish I had kept Steve's voice mail message recording but the police pet his phone for 2 years I have te phone but it's dead and has no service li also deleted messages he left me the day before on my phone,he was always calling me ,I never thought I wouldn't have another chance.i did receive a strange text message on my phone sometime after Steve died ,I didn't even find it till quite some time after ,it just said I'm home.

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Ted...

 

Here you go...I know it will bring tears, but that is ok, because those tears will help cleanse your heart a little, and allow those good memories to bring a little peace.  Even now, thinking of you and Nick, I am crying and that too is ok, because sometimes the memories of my "adopted" children here are so precious for me, just like Brooks' own memories.  I don't know why that is, but it just is...  We share our children openly and we all cry and smile at those memories, because they are like our own child's, and those memories will never be forgotten.

 

 

Brooks was my only child, and I grieve so hard for that, but I also want to live my life in honor of him, and I truly think our connection here creates a connection in heaven so Brooks is with Nick, Jared, Jesse, Cara, Eri, Trista, Stephen, John David, Lane, Jessica, Mike, Yana, Laine, Rich, Char, Jeff, Alex, Emily, Brian, Cherish, Sam, little Isabella, Forest, Sarah, Steve, Meagan, Shannon, Brian, Geoff, Adam, Holden, Lisa, David, Lori, MsMom's son... and now I think of all of them when I think of Brooks.  I also revel in the new memories shared by their brothers and sisters...cousins...friends...grandparents...and PARENTS.  I have never met a single one of them, but I feel like I am a little part of this "whole" family, and I am better for that.  Our grief is personal, but by sharing, it also breaks it up so others can help take a little piece once in a while when we are overwhelmed.  I don't think I will ever truly understand how important that has been for me.  Just hearing Lora tell me about her situation with Cara's phone will make it easier when I turn off Brooks'.  Hearing how Gretchen was going to honor Forest with his birthday celebration will help me when Brooks has his birthday.  And the Angelversaries...I don't know how I will handle that, but I know the support will be awesome.  I look forward to my son's name being proclaimed here, because I know he will never be forgotten.  Again, I don't know why that would give me some peace...but I know it just will...  This journey is so hard...so, so hard...but like a marathon...you...my loved friends...provide sustenance along the way...water for our grieving thirst...protein bars for our tired bodies...encouragement for our breaking hearts...and when we approach the finish line...whatever that may be for each of us...a shared race will be met with hugs and tears...and the knowledge that we can overcome...  And our children will cheer...slap each other on the backs... and give high fives, and say "Good job, mom...good job...dad.  We knew you could do it!"

 

And when we meet them again they will say..."We're proud of you...we're proud of all of you!"

 

Brooks, I want you to be proud of me... I'm trying so hard...your heart is my heart and I will never let you go, but I need to do a few things for me so I'm sorry I am turning your phone off.  I can still read your texts and hear your messages...hear your voice...but it is time.  I still miss you and love you so much...but it is time...

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Jesse David & Taylor Mom

From Wade's post..."I'm finally going to turn Brooks' phone off.  No reason to keep paying for it anymore.  I think I will ask all his friends to send one more text to him, though.  Just one more..."

Wade, I had recorded my son's phone greeting...you may consider doing this before it is shut off. I used Audacity (freeware) and a microphone attached to my computer...I am keeping the WAV file saved in several different locations....

The FB post spoke to the heart...thanks for sharing...

 

******************************************

Ted...as I looked at your photos I can feel the grief fixated in that place where all your life changed in an instant...I remember when I first went to Jesse's Angel spot...I got sick...I am sorry for your broken heart...

 

***************************************

MSMOM, I had read the post from the other thread...grief can be complicated...for me, this is my second child death...for my baby I missed the symptoms of SIDS he died at 6 weeks...now for my only other son, I sent him to the doctor and someone ran him over in his own lane...and she is not sorry...

 

I was in such a state of shock and trauma that my counselor at the time recommended that I build a "resting" space in my home...I chose a comfortable oversize chair in the living room, got a soft blanket, and kept my books and teas/chocolates nearby...it was a place I retreated to when I was overwhelmed, my "safe" place...I also used this space to journal in...

 

******************************************

Jan, that was a precious picture from Meagan...as I studied it, I could see that she felt loved by you both...the late Elizabeth Kubler-Ross felt there was much that was communicated by drawings from children facing death...

 

*****************************************

 

Sandy, the dog sounds like a bit of sunshine...my sister in law has raised shelties for years, and taken in several that were in need of a foster home...they are a very intelligent dog and loyal to their masters....my dogs have been some of my closest "friends" over the years...

 

****************************************

Lora, your visual of heaven was much needed by me this morning...Thanks...

 

 

****************************************

Wanda, wishing you rest this evening...myself, I have found an increasing loss of concentration lately so any task is hard...I set my limits...

 

Wishing everyone a peaceful evening...

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Jesse David & Taylor Mom

Wade, I too feel that connectiveness with the children from this site. The song about the truck...so many memories there for me and Jesse too...

 

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Ted and Wade, here is Jesse's truck I kept...

 

***************************************

 

Mary Anne, I remember what you said about the text you received...I have always been very touched by the story of your son and his gentleness....caring for his grandmother and his love of animals.

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Thank you Wade i cried and cried watching I drive your truck its like I ride Nicks quad.

He took his car with him in the accident. The car his mom and I gave him for graduation and then  Nick and I build it to go fast. Here is the car we built Nick and I. I am glad it is not here without him I don't think I could get over looking at it everyday without him, good he took it with him to many memories.

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It's been 38 days since my 5 year old daughter Kylie died of cancer. She's such a sweet, smart and adorable girl. My greatest fear is to lost her. I can't believe that am actually going through this unbearable pain every day. She died January 1, 2014, while she's leaning on my chest.

There are times I hated God why He took away the only person who made my life complete. Why did He let my daughter have cancer??? And i would be happier if I died with her..

Things will never be the same again...People would say, "atleast, you already have an angel in heaven". I wanted to scream that I don't need her up in heaven. I want her with me...

Am grateful this site exists..God bless us all..

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Mermaid Tears

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MissKylie....this came to mind when I read your post.....more later....

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Kylie's mom,

You have come to the right place. I lost my 16 year old son, Brian on 6-19-2008 from a car crash. Each of us have our own road that lead us here, but the result is the same. Our children died before us.

You are so new and the searing pain is constant. Please know, this level of pain will not last forever. Be kind to yourself. Allow yourself to cry, scream, wonder why. We all need to do that.

Please tell us about your Kylie. Here we listen and say their name.

Colleen, Brian's Mother forever

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Mom of Kylie,

I am so sad that you lost your BEAUTIFUL DAUGHTER, she is so precious. We know that your heart is broken, shattered for all that you have lost. One day is too long without our Child, but 38 days is ridiculous. I am very sorry that your Girl had cancer. Tell us more about her and you when you can. We welcome you here, you are safe here with us. I know it does not make it better but many of us believe that our Children gathered us here, and your coming here means that Kylie has some of the most wonderful caretakers in the world with her, showing her the magnificence of her new home. She will always be your Daughter and always in you, just as you will always be her Momma, the woman to shine her light to, the woman who held her close through it all.

 

Laurie, how are you feeling these days? Christina? I sure wish I had ERi's message recorded, but when she was killed, I don't fully remember what happened to the phone, it was a new phone just received that day that the train hit her car. I do remember the carrier calling and telling me that my Daughter is not paying her bills. I said, no kidding, she can't pay them anymore, she died in a horrid accident. They said well that is terrible, shall we arrange payments from you? I said, arrange what you want, there will be no payments, my Daughter was an adult, she is gone now, so is your money.

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Wade

You said it all. I too feel a special closeness to the people on this site and the children they represent. I have been on this site for over 5 years and many have come and gone, but a few of us have hung on, because of this special closeness we feel.

To all

When I first came to this site, I was broken and wanted to die like my son. But I have a husband and 2 surviving children..I needed to be an example to them. This site allowed me to talk with people who actually survived the death of a child.

I am here to say I have become one of those parents who is surviving the death of a child. This grief journey never ends, just changes over time.

Thank you all for helping me to live again. And to the Minnesota 6. Trudi, Dee, Bonnie, Carol, Marcia, and me. We met in 2009, because of this site. Our meeting is one of my most special memories.

Colleen, Brian's mom 4 ever

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Right On Colleen,

One of my dearest memories as well, I remember waiting in the lobby of the hotel and when you guys pulled up, I immediately started to sob. We hugged and I cried and cried to actually meet the women I had come to know here. Standing strong in our losses because we must, because we learned, because we found shelter here in the midst of so much brokenness.

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Colleen - I remember when the 6 of you gathered together in Minnesota. I have a lovely picture of all of you standing outside by a large tree. I had made a copy of it for my Beyond Indigo folder. I'm sure you will always treasure your memories of that special time.

Miss Kylie - I am so sorry for the loss of your beautiful child. She is lovely. As others have said, I also believe that we were guided to this site by our heavenly children. I hope you will feel the warmth and understanding that everyone shares on this site. Please know that we care deeply for you and your little girl.

Wade and Ted - Thank you both so much for sharing your beautiful sons Brooks and Nick. You write so beautifully from your broken hearts.

Thinking of you all.....

Pat

Lori's Mom forever

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Wanda, could you get the company issuing the check to write it out in your name. I think companies should have special people deal with these types of situations. I did not have life insurance for Cara. I did but changed jobs. I know when dealing with the medical insurance I called one company so I could set up payments and she told me your daughter was 18, she is expired, just send I the death certificate. I was speechless at how I was treated.

Lora, the insurance company issues the check to the estate of the person that dies, it  seem to be a blanket policy regardless of the age. Its insurance  you get with your drives licence the province provides. We don't pay extra for it, (its hidden in our taxes)  its provincial wide and everyone who drives, has it. Unless your car accident involves alcohol, you are no longer covered by the insurance, but if you have passengers that die, they have insurance. Its paid to the family to help out, they also pay for the funeral direct to the funeral home, but again, the money its paid to the estate.  But you are exactly right, that would solve all the problems. i completely agree, they should have trained staff to deal with situations like this, i find i too am speechless as to how insensitive people are. Its almost like it is their personal money they are handing to me. 

 

Wade, i had Lanes phone cancelled about 3 weeks ago, it still has all the texts, all the last photos, he had no voice message, but very difficult, but i knew it had to be done. I can still get to Lanes voice, he had a series of games on you tube, that he played, so anytime i can go and hear him play, but only in small doses at its very painful.

 beautiful words...

And when we meet them again they will say..."We're proud of you...we're proud of all of you!"

 

Ted...as I looked at your photos I can feel the grief fixated in that place where all your life changed in an instant...I remember when I first went to Jesse's Angel spot...I got sick...I am sorry for your broken heart...me too Laurie, so painful

 

Ted, Lane died in the car his dad had given him, it was a 4 door red tempo, nothing special, but i have never seen it again, i just cant. We put a cross on the highway where he was killed, but i could not stand in the same place, the cross was placed on the other side of the intersection.

 

I was in such a state of shock and trauma that my counselor at the time recommended that I build a "resting" space in my home...I chose a comfortable oversize chair in the living room, got a soft blanket, and kept my books and teas/chocolates nearby...it was a place I retreated to when I was overwhelmed, my "safe" place..

Laurie, i too have a safe place in my home, its where i knit, meditate, cry, grieve, what ever i need to do. I don't think i knew you had a previous loss. Thinking of you. 

 

 

 

I agree with the post that discuss the helpfulness of this place, and the connection i feel to each one of you. There are no coincidences, i feel, after Lane died, i needed to be around people who have the same heart. I am grateful for you all.

 

Much love, Wanda

 

 

We loved the Olympics, to painful to watch...

 

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Mermaid Tears

I am here to say I have become one of those parents who is surviving the death of a child. This grief journey never ends, just changes over time.       

  From: Colleen

 

 

Yes....we are surviving....

   

I didn't know a group from the site actually got to meet up with one another....amazing...

I know that by the time you actually were face to face....there was already a 'knowing' among you...and a connection that even surpasses a kindred friendship....am so happy that happened....makes my heart smile.

 

Becky....I am getting a little worried about our 'Warrior Mom'.....if anyone knows how to contact her other than this site...please let her know we are thinking of her....

 

Kate...you ok? Or has the snow piled up over your house ? Let us hear....

 

Carol....I miss your posts....

 

Sherry...loved that 'snow' photo....and the dinner bell....brrrr..it looks too cold for this South Texas gal...

 

More later.....

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Hi Gang, it is snowing here today, cloudy and snowing. My Husband and I will take public transportation later on to meet some friends in the city to have dinner and see a play. I have not gone to a play in ages, and while I love theater, I worry about falling asleep as sitting and relaxing finds me drifting off.

 

I have that photo Pat, that you are speaking of, of the six of us in front of a big old tree. It sits framed on my bookshelf here in my office. My husband was the only spouse to come to our gathering, which was funny in itself, so he had everyone's camera and snapped most of the photos from our trip.

 

Susan, I was starting to worry too, about Becky and how she is. I wonder if she needed surgery or something and just could not post...hope there is nothing more serious going on.

 

Gretchen you okay?

 

Sherry, more snow coming your way, though not heavy it seems more than they predicted.

 

Sandy, just checking in. How are your roads today?

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Jesse David & Taylor Mom

Miss Kylie, your daughter is just so beautiful and precious...I am so so sorry about the cancer...this is a good place to share our children, their lives, and memories...

 

Wanda, yes this is my second child loss...Taylor was my son that died of SIDS...now Jesse...understand the feelings you have where your son Lane was taken...feel the same...and I would not want the vehicle back either...for me I am angry at motorcycles...especially the one we purchased, I hate that bike with a passion, it is like I personified the machine...for a long time I would through rocks at the other motorcycles in the garage we had left...

 

Dee, I had read about the last gathering you had in Minnesota...would anyone be interested in meeting perhaps this early summer near Chicago? I also was wondering what Erica's birth year was? I think it may be the same as Jesse's...

 

 

Today...It was a day that I was able to get out to the cemetery and do some grooming on Jesse's site....Never in a million years did I think my life would come to this again...

 

 

Wade and Ted, I had given my son this book one time for his birthday...I think you will get the humor in this...and Jesse did come to own a truck very similar to this one as well...

 

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How are you doing Becky?

 

Kate, how are things up by you?

 

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Mermaid Tears

Laurie....I had John David cremated....and there is a very personal story for that...which I will relate later...ties in with the passing of my Grandparents and parents...

 

I don't know where the strength comes from when a parent visits the resting place of their child...too much for me to reach into that place now....but the sorrow and pain is read between every line each of you write...

 

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Susan, thanks for asking. I appreciate it. I have been in a very strange place this past few days. Just a need to be alone with my own thoughts. 

 

Wade, two Canadian sisters won the Mogul tonight. Gold and silver. Never done before in Olympic history. Makes me so proud.

 

They say that love can move mountains. That may explain how we find the strength to quietly and lovingly grieve for our child. To hold close in our hearts the very real fact that we will see them again. After a period of time I found I was anxious to visit Jeff's site regularly. Working in his  garden helped to give me a sense of doing something really nice for him. I needed that connection and hands on feeling. I had felt so disconnected for a long time.  I finally have accepted that he is gone, but I am also looking forward to seeing him again down the road. That is what gives me the strength to continue.  I hope that eventually all that are here will also have that sense of peace and release. It's ok to be happy once again. It takes time to reach that point... but it does come.

 

Shannon, I have kept a box full of what I call my "Treasures". On Valentines Day I will take out one of Jeffs cards and place it alongside the recent one from his brother. I kept them all. Those little home made cards are worth more than any Hallmark card to me. Treasure that gift your girl gave to you. It keeps on giving.

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Guest Trista's_Mom

It's been one of those nights. It's only 9:30 pm and it feels much later. I've just been in a place where I feel like I'm floating along in space... not very grounded, I guess. I've been working on Trista's memorial stone. Since there was no way it could be done in time to place before winter and I knew it would not be able to set before spring, I haven't had to rush. I've had thoughts and ideas. I've tucked them away. Now it's time that I have to start really working on it and it's very hard. I know everyone understands how these things are... these labors of love... planning memorials, designing stones, all we do in honor of Children. I want her to have something beautiful but always in my mind is that no parent should ever be doing this for their child. It's so painful.

Tonight I just felt the need to look through some of Trista's things. I was looking through some of her school papers, journals, sketch pads... and I found two Valentine Cards from her to me. I keep her things like that in a different place but somehow they got put here and it was perfect timing to find them... Just those two Valentines from my Girl to me.

Kate,

I love the feathers and the radio. Thank you for sharing that. Jeff, of course would keep his pact with you, especially when you so need to feel him near. I love the ways our Angels shine through.

I haven't been able to catch up on all the posts. I will probably do that tonight. The kids (Madison, my stepdaughter, is with us this weekend) have gone to sleep early. Boy, did they play hard today. We made some Valentine cookies. I let them decorate. They are more icing and sprinkles than cookie. Definitely must be ate with coffee to take away from the sweetness.

Thinking of everyone tonight and sending wishes for a peaceful night.

Shannon

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Tristas mom,I have found many valentines cards fron Steve I kept thru the years I will be getting them out soon they always make me cry to read them

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Mermaid Tears

Shannon...I think Dee and the ones that have been on this site for many years....will tell you...

NO....there is not any time...time to do this...or time to do that...

Or...time of  the memorial of your precious...girl....no...not in the Springtime..Falltime...Snowtime...Summertime...no....no no...if ever I would leave you...it wouldn't be in summer...winter or spring...or fall.......if ever I would leave you at all....

 

hey...just leave it...just go away from it...it does not serve anyone....nor you....this is not written in stone work....just leave it...for another day...or month...or year....it does not matter....really...ever

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Guest Trista's_Mom

Susan,

Thank you. I think you're right. I am going to put it away for a few days. I didn't realize how 'deep' I was going until I was already there. I've lit some candles tonight, surrounded myself with Trista - happy memories, made some tea and listened to some of the music that brings me comfort. It helped.

Dee,

I have to tell you, one of the songs I always go to is the Rusted Root song - Send Me On My May. You posted it on my birthday. It was just a little over a month after Trista's accident. It was a very hard day and you posted that song. It brought back some good memories and had a completely 'new' meaning that day. Now when I hear it I think of all of our Angels dancing and singing together. Thank you for that. A lot of the music, poems, and writings that are shared have really touched my heart.

Mary Ann,

I know how these special things bring tears but are so very precious. No one knows like us how much they mean, the memories they hold and how we need to have things we can touch.

Kylie's Mom,

Kylie is absolutely beautiful. I'm so sorry for your loss but I am glad you found us here. People say things that really hurt. Most of them mean well but they don't know what to say. They have no idea of this pain unless they've walked this path. Please keep sharing your beautiful little Girl with us.

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Hello to my BI family...

Coming here to BI has always been balm for me, always given me strength, given me a place to feel safe to talk about sorrow that some others think "should be over by now."  It is a sorrow that we carry forever and while it may lessen or not be as sharp as time moves us through our life, it is with us, always.  In the beginning, sometimes our memories can bring more pain than comfort.  When first remembering them we are assailed by the thought  "but there will never be any more made."  But over time, we learn to be thankful for them, to return to them to find comfort, and eventually, the "bitter" wanes some and the "sweet" becomes stronger and we feel the joy once again that they brought when first made.  I have reached this level in my healing, but as we all know, levels are never permanent...we move back and forth between them over and over...and it does seem that these types of "family days" (birthdays, etc.) tend to open that wound a little more than other days and we find ourselves back on a previous level we'd thought we'd left behind.  Coming here always seems to give me the strength I need to get back to the level of healing I had reached before my heart pulled me backwards yet again. 

 

I read your posts, and send my love and comfort to all here...I offer my comfort to those who are new here...wishing you never had to find such a place, but knowing from my own experience that you have found that "soft place" where you are able to speak of your loss, your deep sorrow and even your sense of "what" "why" and whatever else you may feel, without judgment or that feeling of dismissal.  Those here for a while continue to offer their wisdom, their support and the reassurance that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  We learn that while it will never "go away," our soul-crushing grief will be "softer," and we will eventually come to a point where we not only realize that we must move forward in honor of our sweet babies, we find ourselves able to...and wanting to, a little at a time. 

 

Friday was my birthday, and as I have done for the past 8 birthdays, I looked through my box of "things from Mike" and came across this card.  I think I may have posted it before, but it is one of my favorites, because I know it took him a long time to make it and to write "love" all those times in each of the letters.  "Taking a long time" to something" was not his strong suit, so when I read this card, I chuckle at the thought of him sitting there, pen in hand, willing to spend all that time...on me.  I am so thankful for having kept these kinds of things, as it helps at these times when it seems his absence is felt even more keenly than usual, as the family gathers again for a celebration of one of us, without him here.  I read in one of his cards (written during a particularly hard year he had "growing up") he had written "...I know I would be lost without you and so every day I know I'm lucky that you're here.  As I watch my parents get older I get nervous, like someday it's all gonna be me, with no one to help me sort it out or keep it together; to save me from myself.  But it's more than that; it's the indispensable memories of not wanting to let go of your leg (when he was a small toddler, he liked to sit on my foot, holding on to my leg, and "ride" along with me as I moved about the house, doing chores, etc.) of all the costumes you made, the toys you bought, hugs you gave, trying to make it so I had all the chances to go on.  You've helped me so much, but [i wonder] when will the help stop?  Someday.  I hope I can make it before then.  Until then I am glad to have you here, appreciative, and glad you're my mom.  I love you.  Happy Birthday.  Mike."

 

He never had to find out what it would be like without me/his dad here.  But, as all of us here on BI, I've had to learn what it is like to live without my child here.  And no words are needed for anyone here to know how that is.  I would rather have never known.  (as I'm sure all of us here feel that way) 

 

Thank you for allowing me to share this with you, and thank you for embracing my heart and helping to mend it.   The last picture posted is of the sky that greeted Lucy and I on Friday morning, as we left the house for our walk, and the middle picture is of two hearts that I found as Lucy and I moved on down the street.  The larger one was laying there on a snowbank by my house, and the other was on the ground a little further down.  I brought them back to the house and set them on the chair on the porch, where they still sit, unmelted, unchanged by the sun, for now.  Just like our own hearts...unmelted, unchanged from our sorrow, in the beginning.  But eventually, the sun comes through and we see the changes take place...over time.  Like DEE has said, "we promise."   

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Thank you for letting me share my story. My grief. As no matter how much I cried, this pain seems so endless. Kylie is so perfect for me. When I wake up, she'll hug and say "I love you mommy". And whenever she can, she'd always write love letters for me.

 

Kylie was born with sacrococcygeal teratoma, tumor in her tailbone. We had it removed when she's 26 days old. All along we thought we can let her grow up just like any normal child. No doctor here in the Philippines have told us that a tumor might come back as malignant.

 

It was benign when she's a baby. And came back malignant after 5 years. And dear Lord, she's only 5 years old...How can someone so sweet and beautiful and so young will die of cancer.

 

Before my daughter Kylie died, she asked, "What's happening to me?" I wasn't able to tell her, she have cancer. I don't want her to loose hope and I cannot tell her that she's dying...It was on New Year's day, while people outside the hospital are all happy looking forward for a better year. Inside the hospital, my daughter Kylie had cardiac arrest, and she died in my arms...Am I cursed? Did I committed a mortal sin in exchange of my daughter's life?

 

I don't know where should I go or how should I live. When it feels like dying everyday. That's why I keep on looking for a site where people would listen for this kind of story.

 

Our family had always been religious. And i can't understand why this should be the way to follow God's will. I just want my daughter back.

 

Thank you Jesse David's Mom, lorismom, ericasmom, shorty16, Mermaid Tears-- for grieving with me...  MsMom and Steve s mom for constant chat of our losses.

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