Administrators Kelly Posted August 8, 2010 Administrators Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Dear Members,We are excited to mention that we are moving to a more new and improved message boards on MONDAY MORNING AUGUST 9th! The boards will be done for a few hours while we are making the conversation. Remember we posted information about this move a month ago. For some of you this might seem a bit sudden, but when we were reviewing the site we determined the current message board you are using is out of date and the company that designed it is no longer in existence. The good news is this new message board will have new features that have been requested in the past like more fields we can add to your profiles and a chat room up to 20 people at one time. If we find the chat room is bursting at the seams we will add additional room for extra people. All your old posts, private messages and such will be migrated to the new message board. You might have to put up your profile picture again but not sure. The new company will be doing the migration for us. Here is a short list of some of the new features on the board:- Custom Profile Fields- Users can customize their profile pages by selecting a background color or background image, with tiling options.- Facebook and Twitter Integration- users can respond to multiple posts at once with "mini-quote"- Pinned discussion threads - like welcome to our board etc.- Announcements made across some boards or the entire message board- Search: Users can easily find all content generated by a particular member, by clicking the 'Find Content' button that appears on the main profile page, or in the Mini Profile Popup which can be accessed throughout the board. The results page allows content to be filtered by application, as well whether the member created it or merely participated in it. - Privacy: allows users to sign in anonymously, hiding them from the online users list. Users also have the option to disable personal conversations and user-to-user emails, as well as ignore other users if necessary.The next exciting piece of news about the new message board is it will have a new domain name of www.grieving.com for search engine optimization purposes. It will still be apart of Beyond Indigo and can be found through www.beyondindigo.com. We will be redirecting your current URL's to this new domain name but we might miss a few. If that is the case simply go back to www.grieving.com or www.beyondindigo.com to find your message board thread. We will try to make the transition as seamless as possible. The bottom line is the new board will give us room to grow our community and more options to interact better with each other. If you have any questions please direct them to feedback@beyondindigo.com. Kelly Baltzell, MACEO/PresidentBeyond Indigo Family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 8, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Hello everyone,Am I to understand that this forum is for those who hold a Christian worldview? If so then I think/know I need to be here. Blessings. Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 8, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Hi Elaine,I'm so sorry for the loss of your Joseph. I lost my Joseph 4 years ago July 31st.Traveling this journey of loss, from shocking grief to recovery, is a difficult road. I created this particular thread because so many times as I searched through my grief journey, I always came back to the questions that were rooted in faith. I found great support on other threads, but not the faith-based support I needed without others feeling offended by the hard questions and observations that can rock the core of who we are and why. I love everyone here at BI, though, and so I found myself visiting many threads throughout my few years that I have been journeying here. If you haven't already, and are in a reading/researching mood, you may find some encouraging and helpful things on this thread. I haven't visited as often these days, as 1) it;s a very busy season for our mission in Ecuador, and 2) I have found myself in a new place on my journey--one that has brought me out of a primary sadness and sense of loss, but rather into a peace and knowing, which has officially sparked a healing journey. I am pretty excited about that, because a few years ago I would have called someone insane if they would have tried to tell me I will be healed. That doesn't mean I still don't find sad times or tough days, because I do. But they are nowhere as prevalent or relevant as what once was. I can only thank God for bringing me to this state of renewed desire for life and what He has for me here. And I am ever thankful for the "vision" (or insight) He has given me into Heaven and Kingdom living (here and there). It has changed everything for me.You are obviously new to this journey, and so you begin your journey of discovering meaning and purpose for yourself from here, in a place of shattered dreams, pain and loss. My heart and prayers go out to you. I hope you find here something special to hold onto for the journey, and some new Sisters and friends along the way.Much love, Claudia (4EverJoeysMom) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 8, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Claudia,I have many thoughts and questions regarding Joseph's death, is he with the Lord? Things on my mind, seems like I don't get the peace to even process a single item before I get knocked down with another. In this case Michael being seriously hurt last week and having to undergo surgery. Then running all over the country (literally) and not letting himself rest like he needs to for fear that he will spoil everyone else' vacation! Where's the PARENT is what I ask, but I know his father and the answer to that question is what Joseph first tried to get through my head: "Mom, Dad is not a parent, I don't look at him as a parent." Ohhh I get it now! I also learned today that Daniel, is in jail in Wyoming, again, on his second minior in possettion. Well dad can't bail him out because he is in Penn right now. Daniel will probably lose his job. I just burst into tears! I've been bawling for over two weeks now! I'm not leaving the house unless I must. I just don't have it to give to anyone other than an occasional errand! I am also hearing rumblings that Michael may actually need plastic surgery on that knee. But he will be in wyoming the week he see's his dads Dr. and who knows what the decision will be, where the surgery will be a HUGE HUGE HUGE stress on me to say the least, and as always tears, more tears.... I was so rocked when telling Michael through our conversation in text today that I just want peace, pray for peace, strive for peace and I really, really do just as the Lord tells us to pursue peace with all men. He shot back with "Well ths family has Never been blessed with peace so I doubt will ever have some." Those were his exact words and it tears at my soul, I lost it, and I just, really don't want to live anymore. I do not want to deal with any more of this stuff called life. I am beaten. I am whipped. God bless.Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 8, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Elaine, I wish I had some answers for you, but prayer is what I can give in the moment. Answers sometimes come swift, but most times slowly. And the Lord gives is those that we need for the moment, sometimes not a moment too soon or too late.In you, through your words, I sense a woman who takes the weight of everyone's problems upon yourself--for those you love. But the reality is that you have absolutely NO control over any of the issues you mentioned. Your Daniel and the jail thing, Michael and the knee.... Sometimes all you can do is pray too. You CAN have peace, and I believe some day you WILL find that peace. But you won't be able to get to it by carrying everyone else's burdens. You can be empathetic and you can be helpful where possible. But you cannot take responsibility for things that do not belong to you. You are a wife and a mother, and a grandmother, but that does not make you responsible for anything more than loving, nurturing and serving those you love, caring for them and praying for them when you have done all that you possibly can. Worry doesn't add anything to any situation, but more stress. Sure you should be concerned. But if you are a praying woman, and you believe that God is in control, then you must also believe that He knows what He is doing in all situations, no matter how confusing, messed up or hurtful they appear to us. I have been living a life of Romans 8:28 for a few years now. Look that Scripture up. And look up Joshua 1:9. Hold onto those 2 passages, and meditate on them for a while. Pray about them and how God might bring you to see those verses as Truth for YOUR life too.As for Joseph being in Heaven, you have to eventually find and make your peace with that through your faith journey. I believe the Lord finishes ALL work that He starts. I believe His finished work on the cross means something greater than what is traditionally taught in the church. But that's truly something between you and God, for Him to show you. You may get glimpses by what someone says to you, a Word that is shared, a dream, or pieces of many things. My advice is to pray for the Lord to bring you a vision in your heart and peace about Joseph's eternal existence. I believe He will bring that to you in time, but you will need to be open to hearing from Him n the various ways that He tries to communicate with you. Right now, I am guessing that the worry is a heavy enough background noise in your life that you might find it very difficult to hear anything God has to say...Praying for you, and hoping for the Lord to touch you, speak to you, and draw you near... Love & Hugs!! ~Claudia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 8, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Claudia,Perhaps I do that, just not aware that I do so. Ordinarily with the Daniel thing, I'd say you know, he's making his bed! But now after Joseph, I am an emotional wreck! I am not a wife Claudia, I have been single 11 yrs. Steve did not see fit to assist me/his boys in my recovery from my near death in 2000. So we got divorced. I know the scripture, oh how well do I know that one!! The day Joseph sat at the kitchen table, 9 yrs old, looking at me in a wheel chair. Saying, with his hand on his tilted chin, "MOm, I know God works ALL things for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose." But I don't see any good in this! That was said by him in reference to me being almost killed, oh how I know that verse, when is there going to be some good I guess is my question... I literally cry out to God asking him to bless me. Joseph walked away from the Lord, he was not right with God when he died, he was NOT the JOseph I knew and love and who's memory I cling too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 8, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Elaine, The truth is none of us know what happens in a person's final moments...in their subconscious or unconscious state of being before that last breath is breathed. Only God knows that. So that's why I don't hinge everything on what I think I know... There is ALWAYS hope, or God wouldn't have come and died on a cross to prove it.I am sorry. It sounded like you were referring to a husband. I am unfamiliar with your family structure, so please forgive my conclusion being wrong.We can choose to live in fear or we can choose to trust the only one who can bring us the kind of peace that defies human understanding. It's a journey, and not an easy one. I think you came to this thread with a glimmer of hope that answers may be found along the way. I pray and hope they are as well, for your sake, and for the glory of God. I am not a cliche' and spout off Scriptures for the heck of it kind of person, as you will learn in time. I shared what 2 verses came to me for you. They may mean something painful today. But those meanings can change in time along this journey. I hope for that too... Love & Prayers, Claudia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 8, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Claudia,I appreciate your words/thoughts/prayers. I've no support here at all, you know it be nice to have someone with some skin on. Though I initally went to the church for comfort, got condemnation instead, it became a here there are many specks in your eye, hey your not grieving, hey you going to crash, hey your education is worthles, hey you need to submit, saying "I needed a husband" good grief I'm not now nor was I then even dating. So I am really without support. It's tough. I liked this though "We can choose to live in fear or we can choose to trust the only one who can bring us the kind of peace that defies human understanding. It's a journey, and not an easy one" I just need to REMEMBER that. God bless! ANd THANK YOU!Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 8, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Elaine, Consider yourself as having a new friend with some skin on. My other advice to you would be to NEVER accept any of that nonsense that the people in "that church" said to you. In fact, if you still go there, leave...run away. That is not church. That is some kind of twisted breakfast club that is FAR from the compassion that God has for hurting people. I believe there are several of my friends from this thread that would agree with that... It's a wonder that anyone would be "real" in that church, for fear of being rejected. Therefore, they are all wearing plastic smiles and "judge" stamped on their foreheads. They shall answer first when they stand before God, for their foolishness and folly. My heart ministry is all about healing and restoration....healing from the pains of life in this world while remembering that we are called to be "in the world BUT not of it". And restoration to stronger relationships in faith and with each other. I have much to share, but another day... my tired eyes are failing me...If you have a sec to go to Youtube to hear this song, maybe it will speak to your hurting heart... xoxoxo ~Claudia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 8, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 Claudia,Just the litte we've talked tonight has ministered to me! But I've met that and similar in ALL the churches I went to in this area! One in fact just told me "we dont have time" of all places I went to the body of Christ! I was in a literal state of shock!!!! I was gossiped about and still am! I am not accepted, and largely so because I am single! A single, divorced mother and my 16 yr old son felt it equally so! Yet they constantly talked about how they wanted to LOVE US. But yet, not once has anyone even come over, just quick to tell me what to do, so much so I could not comprehend it all till months after. I also went to them after the fact, to ensure I did not leave in a divisive spirit and wanting to be sure I told them how I felt so maybe they would not do that to anyone else. When I was met with two pastors, one youth pastor, younger than my oldest boy, and a man 40, who NEITHER had teens. They told me "You have NOT Icor 13 your child, and began breaking it down bit by bit telling me what they thought they saw with Micahel andI. Now they did not know us at all! Still don't! Michael and I tease, razz each other a lot. So that is what they were basing it on. Claudia, I almost shot myself! This was horrific! And I told them that, later though, months later. I tried to go back but the 'vibes' just did not sit well with me. THen I go to another, and try to gain grief counsel support. Tell my story and run into one of the women from the first church, she says to me "I heard you were going such and such church" I said who told u that, of course she would not tell me. Now being brand new in this town I know VERY few people, had to be pastors wife or himself of the new church! Same type of thing with the new church, I won't throw myself at them like I did the first one when I was in shock, so I just keep totally to myself. I might add that just a few months after I lost Joseph, I got a report from the boys dad that Daniel had a brain tumor on his right temporal lobe. Talk about stunned SHOCKED, BEWILDERED! I was brand new in that first church in a bible study knowing NO ONe, and announced that as a prayer request coupled with my losing Joseph, thinking I was with a body of believers... oh they were kind and compassionat seemingly at first, but one by one, they all, most of them flat out stopped talking/asking to me.. I don't get it, I didn't do/say anyting to offened, really I didn't! I still don't get it. I have praise music on now, and SOOOOOOO appreciate your correspondance. I have (not in a while) spoken with a counselor that is with focus on the family, they have really helped me a lot. It's time to get ahold of them again, I just keep forgetting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 8, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 8, 2010 HUGS! I'll post some more tomorrow... Try to sleep knowing truly there are people who genuinely care, and the Lord IS our Shepherd. Blessings!! xoxoxo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 9, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Elaine, Since losing my son and being here in Ecuador, on mission for the past 4-1/2 years, I have come across some of the same things in the church of this culture that you mentioned--the judgement, people suggesting the faith isn't strong enough, pointing at specks while camouflaging their own planks, etc... I discovered this after a local woman lost her 19 year old son to a drowning in the river. As I ministered to her, she opened up and shared with me how the church was responding to her loss (similar to what you described). Her response to that was to isolate herself more by withdrawing from that church. It has been 2-1/2 years, and she still has not gone back to the church. Those people don't realize how deeply wounding their judgments are at a time when what is needed most is love, compassion and empathy. But I am also learning that just because people believe in God and go to church does not mean that love, compassion and empathy come naturally to them. So I try to carry on and not do the same thing they are doing, which is to stand in judgement over their ill behavior. The reality is that many parts of the church body are BROKEN, and have been broken for a very long time...since nearly when the body was breathed to life 2000+ years ago. When Paul (of the Bible) preached to the 7 major churches, back in the day, all of them had problems but one. That says a lot for how things are so messed up today. Denominations, church splits over politics, organizations making more of a business out of religion, leaders and pastors "lording over" and trying to control congregations, and the list goes on. But the real reason for all of that is human error. It's just the way of the world. And when the focus of the church body leans in any direction except the vertical one that points straight to focus on Christ (the root of the church's existence), then things tend to get more humanized and less spiritual, and frankly quite messy. SO the folks who come toward the broken church in life times that are devastating do not get the ministering they are looking for, which is what has happened to you. And that's very sad. But please don't let the behavior of some sour your opinion of what true Spirited Christianity is all about. God is not like those people. And many Christians in and outside of structured churches are on a good walk of faith with the Lord, are compassionate, loving and empathetic. I wish they were easier to identify spot on. But it has taken me a while to discover that not everything or everyone is what they seem to be. I've had my share of being burned, no...more like scorched by "Christians" I deeply trusted. It shook me up, but didn't shake my faith. It just altered how I set boundaries toward people...hoping for the best, but knowing that no one is perfect and everyone is subject to deception if their heart leans astray...no matter what their spiritual condition is. That said, maybe in time you will find your way into a community of faith that is pointed in the right direction and is loving and healing/edifying like the body should be. But you don't necessarily have to be attending a church to find that kind of love and acceptance. You can find it through an online community like this, or maybe through the Focus on the Family counselors. It's a little different, and human touch is something we crave, especially when we are hurting. I pray that you will find both in time---the support of a local body, and the support of a great group of community family.You've made a good start by finding us here at BI, a safe place where you can begin to open up... HUGS!!!! ~Claudia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members msroderskie Posted August 9, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Hello Elaine, I just have to give a big AMEN!! to everything that Claudia has said. I've not had the misfortune of that kind of judgment in my face at church, but I understand that these awful things do happen when people have a Pharasaic attitude. They cause so much harm and do not seem to realize it. They think they are "doing God's work". Truly you can't listen to that condemnation. I too have had times of intense worry for my sons' fates when they died. Neither of them was closely following the Lord, but I believe that He does finish the good work that He starts and both of my boys had turned to Christ when they were younger. They had a little mustard seed of faith, and they would have grown into serious Christians if given enough time, but it might have taken a few decades, frankly, for them to prioritize their relationship with God. My second son was angry at God about the death of his big brother, and that's the state in which he died. Yet I've comforted myself by believing that in his anger, he was still calling on the Lord to help him in the last moment. That's very likely. But I'm not sure it would been absolutely necessary. God is so much more loving and merciful than we can comprehend. I believe that we do not scratch the surface of the immensity of His love for us. I do not believe that there is universal salvation for every human being. On the other hand I do think that in our sin we ascribe some pretty awful motives and actions to God, like sending a hurt boy to hell because he had become angry at his Father, or turned his back on his Father temporarily. The story of the prodigal son helps me here. Think of how the father in that story waited and watched for his son to return. He literally sprinted with abandon when he saw the son coming home. I think that God's love is like that towards us. We cannot fall into the small-minded game (inspired by the judgmental people in some churches) where we think we know which action or non-action would decide one's fate with God. One phrase from God's Word that I hold onto is in Isaiah 42:3 which talks about the coming Messiah - "A bruised reed He shall not break...". I believe that statement applies to our sons. They've been like bruised reeds, but He has mercy on them and does not break them in their time of need, in those last moments.I hope this helps you some. Would it be too hard to share more about your son Joseph? If you feel up to it I'd like to hear more about him. And please keep us informed about how Dan and Michael are doing. You are in my prayers Elaine.Rody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 9, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Awesome Truths spoken, Rody! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 9, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 THIS IS AN ACCOUNT OF JOSEPH'S DISSAPEARANCE AS TWO OF HIS PATERNAL AUNTS WHEN AND DID AN INDEPENDANT INVESTIGATION THE DAY AFTER HIS FUNERAL. q Friday, June 12th, 2009 - On evening of Friday June 12, 2009, Joseph Schmidt and numerous friends attended a “Get Funky” party at the Saltair Facility, located just west of Salt Lake City. o Arriving at the event at approximately 10:30 pm, Joseph and two friends (Kacy Bott and his girlfriend, Kelly Bills enter the Saltair facility. Kacy was the driver of the vehicle.o Shortly after arrival, approximately 11:00 – 11:30 pm, Joseph (and/or Kacy) are evicted from the Facility for a unverified reason, Sheriff Officers policing the Saltair Facility, evict Joseph from the event. Though news media claim his eviction for possession of a cigarette lighter, friends claim it was for possession of two glow lights. Patty McCarty, Saltair staff member, indicated possession of either items would not have served justification for eviction from the event. Patty and Kacy convey that it was Kacy Bott who was evicted from the event. o 11:30 pm to 6/13/09 approx 1:30 am - Joseph and Kacy Bott leave the event center and sit in the car they arrived in, which is located in the fenced Saltair parking lot. According to Kacy, he and Joseph just chatted and listened to music in the car, due to what was reported to be moderate to heavy rain showers, awaiting the event to end and travel home with Kelly (Kacy’s girlfriend). o Note - Subsequent questioning of Kacy on several occasions indicate Joseph was in a good frame of mind, and not under the influence of drugs or alcohol. o An associate of Kacy Bott, Daniel Schmidt and others, named “Jay”, reported that when leaving the parking lot on the night of Joseph’s disappearance, he observed an unkempt and nervous individual, who was soaking wet, came up from the pond area, and asked him for a ride, and he provided transport for this individual to a yet unknown location Dripping guy had like a mowhawk hair cut, unkempt clothing, etc. o Note – Subsequent questioning of Daniel and others indicate Joseph was known to be in the possession of “1/4 ounce of mushrooms” earlier in the evening, and was visually observed consuming some. Quantity unknown. Other drugs in possession unknown. o Nearing the end of the party, Kacy Bott, leaves Joseph in car, and returns to the Saltair Facility to gather friends for the trip home. 6/13/09 approx 1:30 am Leaving Joseph in the car with it’s keys, Kacy Bott returned to the event center to meet with other attendees in preparation for trip home (actual entry back into the facility unknown). Spanning the next 1 to 1 1/2 hours, Joseph is alone in the car (to the best of knowledge) and contacts Kacy three times via cell phone (2 calls & 1 text), and brother Daniel once (1 call)o Phone record:o 6/13/09 1:40 am – Text message from Joseph (677-4720) to Kacy (679-3219)o 6/13/09 1:37 am – 1 min. phone call from Joseph (677-4720) to Kacy (679-3219)o 6/13/09 1:29 am – 1 min. phone call from Joseph (677-4720) to Kacy (679-3219)o 6/13/09 1:19 am – 1 min. phone call from Joseph (677-4720) to Daniel (677-1830) q Saturday, June 13th, 2009 o approx 2:45 am, accompanied by Kelly Bills, Kacy Bott returns to the vehicle in the parking lot, to find it is unlocked with keys on seat, but no evidence of Joseph or his whereabouts. Awaiting Joseph’s return, Kacy and others search the parking lot area, and inquire among other friends and event attendees as to knowledge of Joseph’s whereabouts. After waiting for Joseph’s return for approximately 1 hour, and no visual or verbal contact, Kacy and Kelly return to the Salt Lake City apartment that he shared with Joseph, assuming he may have caught a ride with another party. However, upon arrival to the home, Joseph was not there. o Note: Per one conversation between Kacy Bott and Patty McCarty, when Kacy and his mother went to the Saltair Facility to hang missing persons posters, Kacy volunteered that he was the one who had been kicked out for possessing a lighter, and that when he left the event, he gave someone a ride to Salt Lake who was drenched (not clear if from rain or other means) (location of Joseph at this time is unknown)o Upon Kacy’s return to the vehicle, Joseph is not in the vehicle, and friends initiate a search for Joseph. o police and area hospitals are notified of Joseph’s disappearance. 6/13/09 approx 10:00 am. Following numerous attempts to contact Joseph by phone, Daniel, Kacy and other friends notify and inquire police as to whether Joseph may have been arrested, and begin calling area hospitals to see if he had been possibly injured and admitted. In all cases, unable to locate Joseph. o Note – excluding one voice message from Kacy at 8:20 am, asking Joseph to please return a call, no voice messages were recorded into Joseph’s phone mailbox until father (Stephen) is notified and leaves a message asking Joseph to call at 4:20 pmo 3:30 pm Daniel notifies father, Stephen Schmidt who was on vacation in Florida with youngest son, Michael Schmidt about Joseph’s disappearance. Father inquires about circ**stances and asks about contact with police and hospitals, in which Daniel reports that they have been contacted, but police refuse to initiate a search because “a nineteen year old adult has the right to disappear” and “Joseph has been missing less than 24 hours”. Father then attempts several phone calls to Joseph. Father requests that Daniel not contact his mother, Elaine Martinez (in Spokane WA) and possibly worry her needlessly. At this time, Stephen Schmidt tells Michael Schmidt that his brother is missing. Daniel states that he and friends will travel back to Saltair to continue the search for Joseph. Michael sends his mother, Elaine Martinez, a text message to notify her that Joseph is missing.o 4:00 pm to 8:00 pm, Stephen Schmidt (father) makes several phone calls to Daniel, Kacy, and other friends inquiring if Joseph has been found, with no favorable report. q Sunday, June 14th 2009o a missing persons report is filed with police, and police initiate search efforts. Joseph’s family and friends also conduct a search near the Saltair facility. 6/15/09 10:00 am, Elaine Martinez (Mother) finds “Susan’s law” clause which requires law enforcement to follow up on any and all missing person cases where the missing person is below the drinking age, and there is evidence of alcohol being present at an event. Mother contacts Salt Lake Missing Persons Dept. and files a report.o 8:00 am- Stephen Schmidt talks with Kacy and Daniel to inquire if Joseph had been found. They report they had found no evidence of him and had contacted police again, and the police stated there was no intention to take any further action.o 10:00 am Elaine Martinez (Mother) contacts police, who again refuse to get involved. Father attempts to pull Verizon cell phone records, but does not have login and password information. Family & friends continue the search for Joseph. o Until late in the afternoon on Sunday June 14th, Joseph’s phone would ring numerous times before going to voice mail, indicating it was/is in a dry location. q Monday, June 15th, 2009 - Kacy Bott and his mother, along with others begin circulating and posting missing person flyers. o 2:00 pm – Elaine Martinez (Mother) relays information to Stephen Schmidt (Father) regarding filing of Missing Persons Report, who then contacts Sue Christopher the Department Head. Father relays as much information he has regarding circ**stances to Sue, and suggests search ideas. E.G. vents and other possible Saltair building entry points, beachfront, local desert, use of scent dogs, etc. o Search for Joseph continues. Additional flyers are posted and handed out by family and friends. Sue Christopher reports that officers have gone out to the Saltair location and completed a search, with no indication found as to Joseph’s whereabouts. Sue also indicates that a search helicopter would be used to see if Joseph was in the local desert area. Although Sue Christopher indicated lengthy searches were done, and involving several law officers, local Rangers who police the nearby marina and Saltair Facility on a daily basis, and Patty McCarty the Curious Shop Manager, report they were not even made aware that a person was missing in the area. q Wednesday, June 17th, 2009 – o (5 days later) Joseph’s father, Stephen Schmidt, and Joseph’s younger brother, Michael Schmidt return from vacationing in Florida and conduct their own search around the Saltair Facility, they see an object floating in the center of a nearby pond, but due to fading light, was unable to continue search. o 8:00 am to 2:00 pm - Search for Joseph continues. Daniel and friends again search the immediate area near Saltair, as well as several police officers on the ground, accompanied by a search helicopter. o 7:30 pm - Arriving back in Salt Lake City, from Tampa FL, Stephen Schmidt (Father) and youngest son Michael travel back to Saltair to continue the search for Joseph. Leaving the interstate highway and driving on the short frontage road to Saltair, Michael immediately see an object in the middle of a pond immediately to the left of the vehicle. Leaving the vehicle and scanning from the pond shoreline, Father and son review the distant object, and incorrectly determine it as an animal or possibly rocks in the pond. The object did not resemble a clothed human body, due to all tan color (excluding a large dark area on one side), bloated condition, and poor lighting (overcast & raining – late in evening). Having his camera along, Michael snaps a picture of the object. Father and son then search the property immediately adjoining the Saltair Facility, banging on numerous locked storage sheds and containers in the area and calling his name in case Joseph might be trapped in one. o 10:00 pm – Stephen Schmidt (Father) and youngest son, Michael, arrive at Evanston, WY home, and are met by Daniel and another friend. After short discussion of case and search, Michael shows Daniel and friend the picture he snapped of the object observed in the pond. Having an un-easy feeling about the object, Daniel and friend elect to travel back to Saltair the next day to continue searching for Joseph. Stephen Schmidt (Father) researches bank and phone records the next day to see if any activity occurred since initial date of disappearance. q Thursday, June 18th , 2009 - Joseph’s twin brother Daniel Schmidt, younger brother, Michael Schmidt and other friends return to Saltair for another search of the area, this is when the object originally seen on June 17th in the pond is determined to be Joseph’s naked body and the police are notified. Police recover the naked body, and conduct a search for clothing, and find only one shoe near the pond shoreline. o Single shoe was located on the western side of the pond, in an area where access to the pond was significantly restricted by tall vegetation. o 8:00 am - Daniel and friends arrive at father’s home, pick up Michael and a pair of high-power binoculars, and head to Saltair to resume search. Father goes to Verizon store and bank to inquire about Joseph’s accounts. o 10:00 – 11:00 am - Daniel, Michael and friends arrive at the Saltair Facility, and after conducting a short search of the parking lot and immediate area near the building, go to the pond location. Using binoculars, Daniel identifies a tattoo similar to one known to be on Joseph’s body, on the object in the center of the pond. Daniel and friends notify police, who then arrive, retrieve the body, and initiate a search of the area, for the body is found to be stripped naked. One shoe of , identified as being Joseph’s, is discovered near the shore of the pond, but no other clothing and possessions were located. Note – to date (7/10/09), no other clothing or possessions on Joseph’s person on the night of his disappearance have been found. o 1:00 pm - Father receives a call from Kacy Bott who reports he “has bad news” and that “a body was found in a pond at the Saltair Facility” Father inquires as to the source of the information, to which Kacy reports as being his mother. Father turns on radio and internet news and finds leading story of discovery of missing 19 year old man being discovered in pond near Saltair. Father calls and informs Mother of events. o 4:00 pm - Daniel and Michael return to Father’s Wyoming home and confirm finding “Joseph’s” body, and notifies father of law enforcement’s need to conduct an autopsy. q Friday, June 19th, 2009 - police officials oversee an autopsy of the body, and then release the body to family for burial. Results of autopsy pending, but police and media theorize that drowning is the cause of death. o 1:00 pm - Father contacts Detective Adamson, per request, who informs father of preliminary information regarding condition of Joseph’s body. Detective Adamson indicates he believes Joseph’s death is due to a simple drowning, when he got stuck in the mud of the deep pond, and also all other clothing and possessions are in the pond. Father disputes theory and informs Detective Adamson that Joseph was an excellent swimmer, and stripping bare naked to go swimming was very uncharacteristic of Joseph. o Note – subsequent information regarding pond through searchers wading in to find clothing and discussion with Rangers indicate the pond averages only 4 feet in depth and has a solid bottom, despite the mucky shoreline. o Additional information regarding the presence of significant blistering and decomposition indicated it had been exposed to the atmosphere for some time. o Additional information indicates Joseph’s body displayed significant swelling in the head and neck area. Additional Facts & Information:When reviewing internet “MySpace” texts between friends and associates of Joseph’s, shortly after the news of his death is made known, one suspicious entry is made by an individual named “Tre” that states “It was just good business” To date (7/10/09), it is not known if Detectives investigating the case of Joseph’s death have interviewed/spoken with any parties other than immediate family members (father, mother, brother Daniel, and Diane – Aunt who spoke with Park Rangers and Patty McCarty), including Kacy Bott, Kelly Bills, other friends and associates at event, Park Rangers, Patty McCarty, event security personnel, etc., but indication is that they have not made any contact with personnel that may have information regarding events leading to his death. Diane Schmidt’s (Joseph’s aunt) conversation with Kacy Bott: Kacy stated that Joseph rode with him and his (Kacy’s) girlfriend, in his girlfriend’s car to the Paul Van Dyk event at Saltair, arriving at 10:40pm. Kacy and Joseph went out back to the lawn area right after they entered the building to have a smoke. According to Kacy, Joseph was then kicked out of the event for possessing a lighter and glow sticks, so Kacy went out with Joseph to Kacy’s girlfriend’s vehicle, which was parked approximately 100 yards away, directly in front of the building. Kacy stated that he sat with Joseph in the car listening to music and talked with him for three hours about their new apartment and “other stuff” until 1:40 am, when he went back inside to the event to find his girlfriend. I asked Kacy if he and Joseph were drinking or doing drugs, he replied “no.” I asked Kacy if anyone else had come out to visit with he and Joseph while they were out there (in the car), or if he noticed anyone else around the area during that time and he replied “no.” When asked how many of their friends were in attendance at the event, Kacy stated “about thirty.” Kacy stated that the concert ended at 3:00 am, and they (I don’t know who “they” are) looked around for Joseph until 4:30 am, then left and went back to the apartment. I thanked Kacy for his time, and hung up the phone. On Thursday, June 25, 2009, I drove to Saltair with my sister Karen to speak with the Saltair employees to find out where Joseph had been found and obtain as much information as possible about the events that took place the night of his death and the time period followed, up to the discovery of his body. My sister and I spoke with Patty McCarty, Saltair Boutique Manager, explaining who we were and why we were there. We told Ms. McCarty that it was our understanding that Joseph rode with his roommate, Kacy, and Kacy's girlfriend (name unknown), in Kacy's girlfriend's car to the Paul Van Dyk event being held at Saltair on the evening of June 12, 2009. Joseph got kicked out of the concert for bringing glow sticks in to the event, so the roommate gave the car keys to Joseph, who in turn, went out and sat in the vehicle. Kacy went out of the concert to visit with Joseph in the car and later, went back in to the event where his girlfriend and several other friends were in attendance. We asked Ms. McCarty if security adheres to the sign on the front of the building, which clearly states in big, bold letters “NO RE-ENTRY”. She stated that do not allow re-entry into the building. Ms. McCarty led my sister and me to the location where Joseph’s body was found in the pond, south of Saltair. According to Ms. McCarty, the security at Saltair, which includes some off-duty officers, would not kick anyone out for bringing glow sticks into an event because they sell them inside and would not be able to prove whether they were purchased inside or elsewhere. Ms McCarty stated that the only reason that an individual would be removed from the premises is if they were caught with, or suspected of possessing drugs. Ms. McCarty also told us that when Kacy came to Saltair with his mother to place “missing” posters of Joseph inside and outside the venue, Kacy volunteered that he was the one who had been kicked out for possessing a lighter, and that when he left the event, he gave someone a ride to Salt Lake who was drenched. In addition, Ms Carty stated that as of that time, neither she, nor any of the employees had been interviewed by local law enforcement. Ms. McCarty suggested that Ranger Bob, who works at the state marina located one quarter mile to the west of Saltair, may be able to provide additional information because the state ranger’s are often called in to assist with rescues and recoveries. Karen and I then traveled to the marina to speak with Bob; however, Bob was out at a rescue on Utah Lake so we spoke with Ranger Eric. Ranger Eric stated that he was called on to assist with the recovery of Joseph, and Ranger Bob and Ranger Dave were on site as well. Eric stated that the State Rangers at the marina were not informed of Joseph’s disappearance and were not contacted by any agency or individual until assistance was needed for the recovery of the body. Eric explained the condition of the body after it had been pulled out of the pond, noting that the back/shoulder area looked like leather as though Joseph’s back had been exposed to sun for some time, and the lower back region had large blisters likely due to exposure to the sun. Eric noted that Joseph’s head and neck were enlarged five times the size of a normal individual, and that his neck was so swollen that his jewelry could not be seen. I asked if any of Joseph’s clothes had been found. Eric stated that he had found one of Joseph’s tennis shoes when he kayaked the pond after the recovery, looking for Joseph’s clothing. Eric said that Joseph’s car was in the Saltair parking lot with the keys in the ignition, and his clothing was not in the vehicle. Eric offered to take us to the site where he found the shoe and we accepted his offer. The shoe was found on edge of the pond, located on the opposite side of where the body was recovered, and much further to the west. The area where the shoe was recovered had heavy growth of reeds near the water’s edge, and tamarisk and other vegetation growing behind the reeds on the “shoreline” which would have restricted easy access to the water in that area to go “swimming”. When asked about the depth of the pond, Eric stated that the pond is approximately four feet deep with a silted bottom. The only open access areas to the pond are two, located on the opposite side of the pond butting up to the I-80 entrance ramp and the largest one, located a good distance to the east of where the shoe was found, where the access road, Saltair entrance and I-80 entrance ramp intersects. After I spoke with Detective Adamson on June 29, 2009, I phoned my brother Steve Schmidt to obtain Kacy’s last name and telephone number. Steve suggested that I also provide Daniel Schmidt’s cell phone number and make Detective Adamson aware that he had provided Joseph’s cell phone records to Missing Persons. In addition, Steve gave me the number to a friend, Shea, who had went on the internet to view postings made on Face book by Daniel and Joseph’s group of friends and acquaintances to see if there was any unusual chat after the night of June 12, 2009, when Joseph disappeared. I then called Shea on June 29, 2009. She stated that she had located one entry that she thought was unusual from someone named Tre who wrote “It was just good business”. When Shea asked Daniel about the entry, he dismissed it as having no significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 9, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 THIS IS A BIT ABOUT JOSEPH HIS BROTHES AND MYSELF. A brief bit about Joseph and his brothers. Joseph was the third of four sons. His oldest brother lives in Colorado. He is 29. Daniel and Joseph were born in 90 when I lived in Wyoming and was married to their dad. Michael, the youngest came in 94 and that was the last of me having babies. My then husband did not want any more kids. Steve, the boys dad and I separated in 1999. In a nutshell, I couldn’t continue to raise a 43 yr old man. That, and throwing the kitchen table at me killed every ounce of respect I had for him. I moved with the boyz across the state of Wyoming to attend school at the University of Wyoming, reasoning that I’d better get an education to increase my earning ability. I got hit by a truck when I was doing about 40-50 MPH on my motorcycle, head on. I was in a comma and hospitals for two months. None of which I have any memory of. The boyz are my memories. I got out of the hospital and went home in a wheel chair for eight months. All the while on heavy pain killers, home bound, and with a Traumatic Brain Injury I knew nothing about. That would reveal itself to me some years down the road as bits of my personality changed, was lost, and returned. Steve and I divorced right after that. He never once came and sat down with me and said hey, I love you and the boyz, come home. Never even offered. Just threatened me if I took him to court for asset division. So…. I raised the boyz on my own. Though he paid child support, he did not see them often or try to contact, call, email, them. I did send progress reports and share with him how they were doing. Before our divorce was final he’d moved in a woman and her kids. The boyz were freaked about that. They could not belive their dad was just living with a woman. Whatever. So we lived in s California for six and a half years and I’d bought a small bit of property where we took our horses, raised beef, pork, turkeys, chickens, a garden and an orchard. They had the dirt toys, go cart, dirt bike, and swimming pool and loved it there. Daniel was the somewhat rebellious one with me. He got upset one night cuz I wouldn’t let him to run with friends. His grades were in the toilet and I just said no. He freaked, punched a wall in my direction, cussed me out, and I immediately took him to Wyoming, 750 miles without stopping. I refuse to tolerate that in my house by anyone. His love was ‘his friends.’ He still isn’t right with me over that and he is 20. I figure with maturity he will come round, especially after he marries and has kids. So Joseph’s twin was gone, though Joseph agreed with my course of action. As they turned 18, Joseph wanted to go live in Wyoming. He said he needed his twin. So he went with my blessing. Afterall he had his high school diploma and all but 8 credits of his AA. That was the last time I saw him. March of 2008, he hugged me, his hug said “it’s OK mom” I’m OK! But it wasn’t OK!!! IT WASN’T! He and Daniel partied at dads with daddys approval and full knowledge. The house was a party spot for high schoolers in Evanston Wy. Just before Joseph left Ca he’d fallen for a little gal he took to the prom. Little did we know she was on the rebound, and used him to go in style. He was a saver and had a bunch of money in the bank. Took her in an Excursion Limo, dinner prepared in front of them, corsage, and all the classy grown up things. She dumped him three days later. I never want to see another human in so much pain again! I held him while he sobbed in the dirt at three in the morning. And he changed after that. It was a spiral downhill. All he did in Wyo was act crazy, though he did work. He was out to prove he was the craziest, baddest etc. Fast forward as this is getting long. He went to a ‘rave’ in s Utah with a bunch of friends and his brother Daniel on June 12, 2009. He disappeared sometime during the event. He rode with his roommate and his girl friend. The kids, the twins’ friends and Daniel spent six days searching for him. Michael was back east with his dad on vacation and I was out here. On June 13 Michael called me and told me Joseph was missing. I burst into tears. I finally (with difficulty) got a missing persons report filed on him and started communicating with the Salt Lake County Sheriff’s department. Joseph’s cell phone rang for three days before it died. By day three I knew he was gone. But I’d wander through the house and scream, No, No, NO, he isn’t!! On day six, Steve the boys dad FINALLY saw fit to come home from vacation. They landed in Salt Lake City and then went out to the event center where Joseph went missing. They didn’t see anything and got on the on ramp to take the 90 mile drive to Wyoming. There are four setline ponds by the event center and they saw something on one of them. So Steve stopped the truck and it was getting dark, had been raining, was over cast so light was poor. They figured it was a rock or an animal. Michael shot some photos with his digital camera and they went to Steve’s house. Daniel came over the next morning with two of his friends, grabbed Michael, who was 15 then. And went out to Saltair. Now I ask you, by this time, are they looking for a live person or not??? His father should have wnet, and or NOT allowed Michael to go! Daniel was 19 and he couldn’t prevent that! So when they got there, Michael walked right to Joseph! There’s more to it but that is all I can do right now. For six days Joseph was in the water, my mind still does NOT go there!!! Michael won’t tell me about it, he did a tiny bit. I won’t insist either. It’s his way of protecting me and I will allow him that. Frankly, I don’t want to know. The investigation was a sham, he had no clothes on, they never found them either! Autopsy reports say he drown, tissue was too decomposed to run tests on… Who has josephs’ clothes? I think his roommate knows exactly what happened to him! He tried to hang himself a few months later. The cops didn’t even care about it. Case closed! SIX DAYS OF HELL[align=right][/align] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 9, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 THIS IS A STORY JOSEPH WROTE ABOUT MY NEAR DEATH IN 2007, HE WAS IN ENGLISH 101 AT A JUNIOR COLLEGE AND ONLY 16 YRS OLD. HE GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL AT AGE 16, BUT STARTED COLLEGE AT AGE 15. UNTIL I READ THIS STORY I HAD NO IDEA MY WRECK AFFECTED MY CHILDREN LIKE THIS. AND NOW I REALIZE IT HAD A HUGE AFFECT THAT I WAS JUST TOTALLY UNAWARE OF. THAT IS THE PRICE OF LIVING WITH A TRAUMATIC BRAIN INJURY. THOUGH I AM MIRACULOSY RECOVERED NOW, I STILL HAVE ISSUES THOUGH BUT AM MUCH BETTER. EXCEPT UNDER STRESS, I DON'T DO TOO WELL. I AND OTHERS THOUGHT HIM TO BE A GIFTED WRITER. I WILL RESPOND TO THE OTHER LETTERS AFTER PRAYER AND WORK OUT TIME. THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH! I READ THOSE RESPONSES THIS MORNING, THANK YOU, THANK YOU![align=center]Fast and Fearless[/align][align=center]In every person’s life there are times in which one’s life takes a turning point. These events can stimulate changes for the better or the worse; in either case they shape the rest of that person’s life. Although they may vary in importance and frequency, they equally shape us into the unique individuals that we are. The most profound of these experiences are often traumatic incidents which occur early in life, in childhood. Such is the event that has shaped my own life and made me much of the person I am today; a cruel trick of fate that victimized my siblings and me early in our lifetime.[/align]I still remember that deceivingly tranquil spring day; I remember playing on the swing set in the warm Wyoming sun while a faint breeze made the chartreuse canopy of leaves above applaud at the beautiful green carpet of grass which had sprung from the ice of a bitter winter. My mind has photographed the yellow-brown wheatgrass that grew by the creek across the street and the tinkle of the shimmering water flowing in between stones shaped by the endless flow. I still can hear the rumble of my mother’s motorcycle and the sound of her voice telling us that she would be back in 30 minutes and the smell of exhaust and leather that accompanied her. The deceiving images of a seemingly perfect day.I wish I could forget the memories of pain that still haunt me; I wish that my mind was not programmed to archive the most painful events in life. I remember five hours of waiting for her to return; the worried look on my brother’s faces as we sat on the clapboard porch swing, ears straining to hear the guttural drone of her Yamaha. I recall the jeering sound of the phone ringing and the electric pulses in my body as I rushed to pick it up and the sound of a dry, emotionless voice telling me that there had been an accident. I can still see the faces of my 8 and 4 year old brother’s faces marred with pain and grief as alkaline streaks poured down their faces. I can still feel the lump of dismay in my stomach when I realized that we were three small boys alone in a huge city with our only real parent dying on an operating table a few miles away. I remember the confusion, the hurt, the hate, and the sadness that overwhelmed my life for three years to come. The sight of a broken body that once called itself “Mother” and the will to live in a woman who saw her sons’ lives fall apart while she ran a gauntlet of bone grafts, prosthetic joints, and reconstructive surgery.My mother’s memories would differ very greatly from mine if you asked her about March 4th 2000. She has no memory of that date nor of any day for nearly two months after that. Her day was much like mine in many ways. She woke up early and took her sons to the park to play and while she jogged along the encircling asphalt path. Upon return home she mounted her charcoal motorcycle, told her three boys she would be back in a half hour and headed for the tanning salon. My mother was almost half way to the salon when providence turned perfidious. While crossing one of the many frontage roads laced between the rows of puce, boxlike downtown buildings a drunk driver in a Nissan pickup ran a stop sign and pulled out in front of her. The consequences were devastating. My mother hit the truck dead center at 40-50 mph. She was catapulted 15 feet into the air and her crushed and crumpled motorcycle still bears the five-inch-deep impression where she landed on her pelvis. The damage done to her motorcycle gave the impression that it had been put in a car compacter, but it was trivial compared to the damage done to my mother’s body.My mother shattered 70% of her right arm; her wrist and elbow were reduced to splinters on impact. She also crushed both of her knees, her pelvis, and her right eye socket pulverizing both bone and flesh. Yet to look at her you are not able to discern this in her face, she has no scarring, and did not have her head cracked open. She remained in a coma for three weeks after her accident and sustained a brain injury that, still after 7 years, has not healed fully. Countless different hospitals in four different states still have not been able to repair the damage that was done. However, what was at one time a hopeless case has become an amazing recovery and my mother has almost returned to the person she once was.My mother’s arm, and legs still bear the scars of countless surgeries and lacerations that resulted from the accident but these are the only things that distinguish her from any other 40-year-old single mother externally. But her skin hides a fused wrist, a metal elbow, two prosthetic knees, and countless bone grafts. Her mobility is severely limited and her arm is very delicate. However, she lives with her injuries and performs most of the functions of daily life. Without observing her for some time it is impossible to tell she is disabled at all. But she is limited in the right arm. But those who knew her still see the change in her and her three sons internally. My mother is no longer the picturesque parent she once was; nor are my brothers and I the sweet little boys we once were. Although my little brother was largely unaffected by the ordeal because of his young age at the time, my twin and I bear the emotional scars of two young boys who watched their mother die and come back to life incomplete.Our family has been brought together by the pain that we have endured together. I am inseparable from my brothers and, although rocky at times, I have a newfound appreciation for the relationship that I have with my mother. We all make sure that before anyone goes anywhere they know how much we love them because you may not get that chance later on. As my mother continues to heal psychologically and physiologically most of the stressful burdens that I have born have been lifted although I still have to mediate when stresses of life come upon us. My mother has now achieved an associate’s degree a paralegal certification, and is currently working on her political science degree/pre law and they are accelerated courses that are only allowed 8 weeks of time to complete, Now she is begging the journey to piece together what is left of her life. Motorcycles have always fascinated her and still continue to; she now owns a Yamaha Virago- the same bike that almost took her life and I also ride motorcycles. I have a newfound respect for motorcycles and I realize that longevity is not guaranteed but I do not live in fear. We have a family saying- “There are two types of riders- those that have and those that will.” Go down, that is. This has been only too true in my mother’s case and I know that if I continue to ride it will be true for me eventually too. However, I realize that I will die inevitably and that death is just the next step in life. I choose to live my life to the fullest and I do not let any fear get in the way of my own motorcycling. I believe that it is not the length of time that we are put on this earth that is most important but rather what we do with the time that is given to us. Neither I nor my mother allow ourselves to feel anxiety or fear because of our past experiences- we are fast and we are fearless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 9, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Rody,What happened to your sons? Joseph had a close walk with the Lord for almost his entire life. And many times for years especially following my injury, his walk was by far better than mine. I have been told, its been hinted at for years that ALL of my troubles, such as my crash, the loss of Joseph, are God’s way of getting my attention, and or even that the ‘reason’ I crashed was because I was getting a divorce. Funny thing is millions of Christian’s go through a divorce and don’t reap those kinds of tragedies, but I am using human logic there is what might be said. For years after my brain injury the comment that a Lutheran pastor made to me haunted me, it almost made me walk away from my faith. He told me that God caused my wreck because I was getting a divorce. And he did this when I had just come out of a comma. You cannot think, reason, or remember things when you smash your body/face/head at almost 50 MPH, that was NOT the time to even be talking about anything like that!!! Those fools in the hospital, the pastor, my ex husbands, and my family, none of them realized how injured I was, I cannot believe that to this day! Or they did not care, I don’t know. Joseph grew up with the Lord, from the time he was 4 he knew Christ, and I mean knew him. He and Daniel could recite the 23 Psalm and the Lord’s prayer from memory before they could read. I used to watch him on the swings in the back yard as he pumped his chubby little legs as hard as he could to swing higher, singing loud praises to Jesus, the whole neighborhood could hear him but he didn’t care and I was so happy, so proud of him. Makes me cry just to think of that now.Joseph went to jr high with a gal and when he was through with high school but still working on his AA he started chatting with several of those kids. One girl in particular was Jessica. She is a pretty girl, and was also on the rebound from just being dumped. Though I didn’t know that then. Anyway, she started hanging out with him, he rescued her when she got lost in the desert south of our place when we lived in so CA. So they had this little 6 week-ish courtship. He then surprised her by taking her to the prom. Joseph was super frugal, he never spent any money and could walk through the mall at Christmas time with 200.00 in his pockets with his brothers and come out the other side with 220.00, seen him do it. Lol, why buy drinks n stuff his brothers bought for him and he held on to it. Though he was not stingy, just in a real saving mode. He’d saved all birthday, pell, and any money he got from his dad and or that he worked for. Had over 6k in his savings and he was 16. He rented an Excursion Limo, we went shopping for a suit, tie, shirt, aftershave and all that. It was funny because he was so adamat that he did “NOT” want your help mom” ha ha ha… I got to help anyway! J and I was overjoyed/honored to do so. She didn’t know he rented the limo and he surprised her. Took her to a place where they cooked in front of you, I made sure he bought her a corsage, he said “mom, she is wearing a strapless dress, now where am I supposed to put that on?” HA, mom, to the resecue? I said Joseph, you get a wrist corsage, he was dumb struck, but glad! They had a wonderful time, it was all good. Until 3 days later she dumped him! Everything went to hell then. I never ever want to see another human being suffer like that again!! I held him in my arms at three in the morning while he sobbed, puked, in the dirt on our property, and again in his room, and on the lawn… He changed after that, but for a time, went to the Lord, but I think he went with the idea that God would grant him Jessica, he did not or refused to understand, Jessica was Mormon and they were not ok in God’s sight. But he didn’t care, didn’t put it together, and I am not saying that is the reason God did not restore that relationship, I do not know. Anyway he decided, that “I’ve tried it that way my whole life mom, I’m going to do it my way now’’ I still remember that day. At 18 he moved to his dad’s in Wyoming and began drinking and doing drugs, and was absolutely crazy!!! His father later told me he could not figure out why Joseph would drink a fifth of whiskey and pass out for a day/days. Yet Steve allowed ALL the kids, is and others under age to drink/party in his house. He figured it was safer, had I not been on valium that day I would have beaten him with a shovel right there on my front porch. He also knew they were doing drugs in his house. So in 15 months, he died.. LYou know a week or so after the funeral, I recall the prodigal son, and I thought to myself, the God welcomed him…I cannot fathom a God who beats, terrorizes, punished his children like what has been suggested to me over the yrs. And I am human, I’d not do that to my sons, how could a Holy God do such an evil thing? That is what I have reasoned, or do reason. But it seems there are many others that feel they need to correct me on this to show me that isn’t the case.. I don’t understand that mentality at all. There is more to the story but that is the gist of it if you will. Thank you so much for sharing with me, I’ve no one to talk to at all. I am keeping very much to myself in this tiny town of 2500 people, too much gossip. So far by the grace of God, I’ve kept my big mouth shut, but lemme tell ya, I am not a pushover and could come unhinged if the time is right. I don’t want to shame m Lord by doing that but a lot of the times my flesh cries OUT TO DO JUST THAT! Pray that I won’t, that I will just let it go. Peace.Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 9, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Elaine, I certainly will pray for your peace, and the ability that you will be able to "let it go". I can very much relate to your story about Joseph, and especially that last post. Upon reading through that, I know without a shred of doubt that your son is with the Lord. And I really am sickened by all of the wanna-be-gods in the world that think our God as merciless as to abandon Joseph in a time when he was hurting, confused and wandering about. On the contrary, the Lord was with Him, and still is. He does not forsake us like people do. Those 'ministers' who spout things like God causes such atrocities are plainly foolish, and so wrong.My Joseph was also on a mission to find his way. He had been captivated by the Holy Spirit the summer he turned 21. He had a tumultuous relationship with the Lord, but one that bore fruit from time to time. I could see him spiritually growing, and then I would see him have a setback. But I didn't doubt that he knew Jesus. One of his best friends had been a recovering drug addict. Joey attended church with him a few weeks before he died, and Brian said Joey was worshiping and singing, arms raised up...no doubt connected in the Spirit. But Joey was also a social butterfly, and he caved to acceptance and peer pressure. He was a year out from getting his bachelor's degree, and made honor grades, though declined fraternity and honor club invitations. He just had a vision to set his own course. Along the way he would go out a lot with his friends on weekends, and binge drink like so many did. He really was torn between the right thing and the popular thing. But I don't see any of that as unforgivable to a merciful God. He knew who his Savior was.During summer break 2006 Joey stayed with his dad, out at the family horse farm. he helped to bail hay, took care of the horses, and had been helping his dad build a new horse barn. But he also got involved with a group of people I call bar flies--friends of his alcoholic uncle. He went out for a last hurrah with them the night before he was due to head back to the campus and pick up his new apartment keys, meet with his advisor and get his things in order to start the new school year. He had won some money in an afternoon horseshoe tournament at one of the local bars near his dad's place, and decided to ride with this group of people to a country bar a couple towns over. After a long day, Joey was refused any more alcohol, became offended and walked out of the bar, stating he was going to walk home. A gal with the group of guys had apparently been messing around with Joey during that summer and had reported during the inquest hearing that she called out to him from the doorway of the bar to wait for her and she would get her stuff and join him. He walked ahead a block and likely was waiting for her, sat at the railroad tracks next to the grain elevator, smoked a few cigarettes (all according to the inquest evidence that was collected), while the gal and her buddies drank their drinks on Joey's dime. She had his wallet, ID, cell phone, and such there in the bar, as he walked off without them. Well, in my opinion, it doesn't appear that any one of them went out looking for him. Because if they had, they would have at the least seen the EMT response team that worked on Joey at the tracks until the coroner arrived. AT 12:15 AM a freight train rolled through and ran right over him. he had apparently passed out on the tracks, waiting... so it appears. But there are so many unanswered questions, like why didn't they notice the EMT flashing lights when the door of the bar faces the street a block from the accident? And why wouldn't they have seen evidence of the accident when they left the bar? Or did they stay there and drink up all his money till after the scene had already been cleared? Joey's wallet was returned empty, and the gal kept his ID...said she didn't see it...whatever. But the gal apparently phoned Joey's uncle at 3 AM, looking for Joey. SO who knows what the heck really happened?! The only for sure thing is that Joey died that night on those dark railroad tracks, a block from the people who had brought him there, while they continued their good time on his dime.I was upset about that for a good while. I remember someone saying to me that this gal wanted to meet me (while I was back home to deal with burying my son). My response was a simple, "what for?". I didn't know any of these people, and I did NOT want to put any faces with my nightmarish reality that their negligence and lack of concern for my son walked him straight to his death. But after some time went by I began to pity them more than be angry for them. After all, all they have of life is sitting around on a bar stool day in and day out, and the recollection that a 23 year old young man died because they failed to care. They have to live with that. I have even a time or two prayed for them, but I am still not all the way there...sadly so. I am no longer angry, just indifferent toward them. I still need to get to the forgiveness part....in time, I suppose.My point in sharing all of this is to say I am human too. I have come so far, but have yet farther to go. I see my shortcomings when it comes to what I do and what I should do. But that doesn't make me less worthy of God's love. And I see the value of the work the Lord begins in someone like my son Joey. I believe wholeheartedly He finishes the work He begins. Like my Joseph, who I am certain is in the presence of the Lord, so am I certain is yours.My other reason for sharing my story from this conclusion is that I have also had to face unanswered questions that will remain unanswered. I have no hope of anyone coming forward with the truth or more information about what happened that night. I had to come to terms with that, or I would drive myself insane wondering and worrying about it. The ultimate truth is that knowing more or less than I do now will not change anything. Maybe someone would be guilty of some wrong doing. But the justice system of the world cannot be my refuge. Only God can comfort me and see the full scope of what truly happened. He will deal with that, not by condemnation to any of those people, but by mercy and grace--because even though I cannot give that to them in this moment, that's the kind of God He is. Maybe they will come to know Him in time through this terrible ordeal and the aftermath, what they carry in their hearts and minds. Only God really knows. And truly I hope that would be the case. I came to an understanding with God that it's OK that I don't have all the answers. It's actually probably better for my peace of mind and heart that I don't. I know the important things--that Joey struggled with God but loved Him at the same time...that Joey IS with the Lord now and wouldn't want to come back to this life if I climbed a staircase to heaven and begged him to come back with me...that God's Word is true and He keeps His promises....and that my response to this tragedy bears more significance than the loss itself, because what's done is done. I can only change what happens moving forward.I spent a lot of time in my early grief studying about Heaven, and about God's eternal promises. It helped me to heal and reconcile a vision for Kingdom living instead of dwelling in a moment gone by that changed the course of my life forever--losing a child. It is so painful, yet I have come to a point, FINALLY, where I can see the promise of Romans 8:28. Some of Joey's true friends have come closer to the Lord. My surviving son and his dad both came to Christ within days of each other after Joey's memorial service. That alone is enough proof to me that God did not cause this horrendous tragedy, but He is working it for good. But beyond that, so much more evidence of that is coming to fruition. I live my life in a way now where I constantly ask myself, "Does this (whatever I am doing or thinking in the moment) hold value only to the here and now, or does it carry worth into eternal Kingdom life. It's been a heck of a journey, but one I am not entirely sorry for. I am sorry for myself that I must miss my son so much and the possibility of future dreams with him--like higher education accomplishments, marriage, children, etc. But those are y "here and now" thoughts, and some day they will pass away with me into an eternal realm where I will once again see my Joey, basking in the Son. I can't imagine anything more beautiful...You have much to work through, my new friend. And no one can tell you how to go about it. All we can do is walk alongside you, bring comfort, empathy and compassion, along with a godly fellowship that will encourage and edify you through the tough times. Not all in the church can offer such, because they are not yet awakened to the full scope of who God is. And if the God I know won't condemn those who may have a hand n someone else's death, yet chooses to show mercy if they come to him, then He certainly is NOT going to condemn a daughter for hurting, fearing, or making a choice in grief that she may have otherwise chosen differently. I can assure you that I, Rody and others here are not those people. We've struggled with all of the very same tough questions you are wrestling with now. We struggled with the pain and guilt of should-have, could-have, would-have thoughts. And we've struggled in the spiritual battle to keep the faith, even when others repeatedly kick us when we're down. Those types of occurrences are not unique only to you. Maybe in knowing that, it can bring you a little comfort, to know you do not suffer alone nor travel this path alone. This site and the good folks here helped me so much in my time of isolation, just as you feel alone right now in your situation. I hope that bring you some hope and encouragement. Your focus needs to be on the work of journeying through your grief and pain, not on the horrible ways people can behave toward others in pain, so that you can find the hope in one day coming through it, out to the other side, where the sun does shine again. And you have work to do to set boundaries for yourself, o limit people who soeak bad things into your life by telling them NO THANK YOU. And to set boundaries with your own children as well, to know when you can make a difference in the lives of your surviving kids--to know when you've done all you can, with nothing more to do but give it over to God and pray for them. Fear is a normal part of motherhood after such a terrible and tragic loss. And if anyone wants to label that and judge us, then their heart is NOT in the right place. Period!! And I have learned that I do NOT have to receive anything negative that people want to speak into my life. I can choose to put my hand up, say no thanks, and leave them to their own devices. I hope so much that hearing that helps you...HUGS and Prayers, ~Claudia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 9, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Claudia, Thank you for sharing that. I am so so so sooooooorrrrrrrryyyyyy! For the loss of your Joseph! I love that name! Joseph Charles was his name. I too feel at times, that pursuing answers would do what? Won't bring him back, is it better left the way it is? Who knows what happened, I think Kacy does, I hate to say it and or even think it, but in a lot of ways, Daniel might too! I'm not the only one that has thought that though. I am just sad right now. Sad, I came to the Library to save some useage on my wireless and to make myself get out of the house, I don't think I've left since Sat. Michael is doing OK, he opted to not go to Gettysburg today & sleep and stay where they are lodging. I am glad for that. No news on Daniel though. I was so glad to hear of the little baby Curtis burns were not worse, is that a praise the Lord or what??? I've been praying for him, and prayed that they would not be as bad as it sounded and God answered! Were you able to read Joseph's story of Fast and Fearless? I know I wrote a LOT.. I can be very long winded and obviously don't have enough to do, nor do I have a person to talk to so that is why I am, I guess God bless you and thank you for talking to me! ya know, I wished I was off on a mission. But on the same note, we need missionaries in AMERICA!Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 9, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 We DO need missionaries in America! I did read your Joseph's writing. He was very articulate, sharp, discerning.... I am sad that yo carry the burden of his sadness during that time, and the guilt for what your children went through. I hope you are free of that one day soon. Your Joseph truly is perfected and magnificently glorified in Christ. He feels no ill feelings now. Try if you can to imagine him in perfect fellowship, glorified body, signing, dancing, feasting in the company of our Lord... It's what gets me through the tough moments of missing my Joey.I will keep Daniel in my prayers as well.... xoxoxo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 9, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 Just crying now, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 9, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 9, 2010 HUGS, and hopefully a restful night to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Hey brothers n sistas I had a much better day/night today. I clung to the words, thoughts, ways of the Lord, and what you all imparted to me... Pray that Michael will be home the 24th! That a "strangers voice he will NOT follow." And pray for his leg, I know u are. :0)I would also like you to make this a matter of prayer. I am researching places to relocate too. I have to move where there is WORK. My top choices are Tx, Ft. Collins Co and Tri-Cities Wa and in that order. Tx is booming and has been, its one of two western states I've not lived in. I think my body can handle the weatehr there. All the metal in me is tough with lots of rain and real cold weather. It can almost imobilize me at times. It's too wet here and I feel it. I have to find WORK... I cannot live on disability for much longer. Michael graduates and my benifits get cut so sharp I won't make it!!! I am praying about it too and asking the Lord for guideance and blessing.. PeaceElaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members westleysmom Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Claudia and Rody,I've been reading your words to Elaine, as I am in much the same boat. I took my children to church since they were little and Westley had professed faith in Jesus and joined the church as a small boy, but in recent years, as most of our children do (and I myself did) was not living life in the way that God would have us live. I struggle with the fears of where he is now and if I will see him again. I am angry at God and find that I am not able to pray. I had prayed for Westley and in my Bible Study group, my prayer requests were almost always for him. And it didn't make any difference in the end, or it didn't seem to. He's gone, were my prayers deficient somehow or ignored? I find it hard to accept that his death was the best possible outcome there could have been. Why did God let our sons die? Did I ever have any faith at all? It has made me question everything I ever believed about God and his mercy and I'm scared to pray for anything, because what if I pray for the wrong thing and something else horrible happens? I had read a book about the Power of Your Words and it said to speak life over your spouse, marriage, children, not to talk negatively because it is death. And then my son died. Is it my fault for not speaking life? Is God punishing me for my life choices? What did I do wrong? And if it was not anything I did wrong and whatever is going to happen is going to happen, what difference does anything make? I don't want to talk to people who have no faith because I don't want to discourage anyone, but our pastor was leaving, Westley's funeral was the last service he held at our church, and the new pastor never knew Westley and is not the kind of pastor that you feel comfortable with right away. My uncle also preached at Westley's funeral, but I haven't wanted to talk to him about my doubts and fears either. I want to believe that it will all work out, I just can't get there yet. If you have any words to speak to these fears, I sure would appreciate it. Rhonda Westley's Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Rhonda,I feel your pain, I also know God is merciful. Though I will not be able to articulate things as well as Claudia will I will try and share my faith with you on how I understand it. I did not live with the Lord the way I should have for many years. Partly due to a brain injury sustained in 2000 and just not knowing what I was to do, add a divorce on to that and you have a real mess as I see it! Though I never stopped going to church, but attendance does not make you a Christian. God never lets go of us, it is we who let go of him. I don’t see him as this big meanie head up there waiting for us to mess up so he can punish us! Like us, he is a parent, he is our father. I reason that if I a mother need to correct, discipline my children, I am not going to KILL them, beat them to near death , kill their pets, to get their attention. NO, now can a Holy, Perfect, all LOVING God do that? I don’t think so. We live in a sin fallen world, people ride motorcycles, they get hit by others, accidents happen, disease is rampant. I do NOT believe GOD TAKES people at all! The only record I know of where he “took” someone was Enoch, and the scripture says “HE TOOK HIM” nowhere else does it state that. Maybe that is why I am not angry at him, I don’t know, but really when I think about it, ‘it is by the grace of God’ that I am not. I’ve no family to support me on any of this it is me & God, that’s it. Oh I have three sons, but only one is living with me, the other two are in rebellion. I don’t think I’m doing much good here. L sorry. I dunno Rhonda, God is Holy, perfect and he gave each one of us a will, sometimes people use that will to cover up stuff, hurt another, lie and all that. He gave us free will. I would toss that book about ‘speaking’ the right words, sounds like a bunch of nonsense, I know what you’re talking about, I have friends that hold to that kind of faith. I don’t share it, let them know I love them, but ‘we don’t have the same theology’ that seems to be the safest to say, stating the elements are the same but the rest is different and letting them know I am OK with that. Seems to work. God knows what we need before we even pray so I seriously doubt you can pray a WRONG prayer. I mean even if we were to do so, he knows all, he knows what is best and is not going to give us a snake if we ask him for a loaf of bread! God didn’t give me Joseph back but I don’t think he took him, killed him, or it was his ‘divine’ plan for his death. Did he know, sure he is God, that being said; again it’s a free will life on this side of heaven. You know Focus on the Family really helped me a lot in the early days, you should call them, they are a huge blessing! Just Google them and the number is right there. Though they will set an appointment time and do it like that it is worth it. Those counselors can answer every one of your questions. You might ask for a man named Lon. He counseled/s me. He is in a wheel chair, a paraplegic and knows pain and suffering. I don’t want to discourage you by not having my ducks in the right rows on paper. I’m not really good at this on line communication with such important matters. Don’t let go of God, reach out and take his hand, he is always there Rhonda. I'm praying for you, I pray for everyone in here a couple times a day but will pray some specifics for you. Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members westleysmom Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Elaine-Thanks for your encouragement, I don't expect anybody to have all the answers to be able to accept the ones they do have! The book was one that we read and studied at Bible study and it was very based in the Bible, I think I've just tried to apply it where it doesn't apply. He said that God spoke the world into existence with his words and that we in his image also had power with our words, although not to create worlds, but in a way to create "our" world. It's just that I didn't quite know what to think when, in spite of trying to do that, this horrible thing happened to the very one I spoke of in my prayers most often. I guess I'm throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but now I don't know what to pray for, so I don't pray. God wouldn't take our babies away from us forever, would he? We'll see them again and it will be so wonderful, right? If I let myself think anything different, I think I'll lose my mind. But sometimes, those doubts creep in, well a lot of the time. It is just so hard and my mind gets so tired of thinking about it and how I could have done something different, a little thing maybe, that would have changed it all. I know that you are having a hard time with little or no support and I appreciate your kind words and prayers.Rhonda Westley's Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 10, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Rhonda,Our God is not a punishing God. The world would make him out to be such, based on Old Testament teachings. In reality, everyone falls short of perfection, which is God's standard. No doubt about that. But from the beginning of time in our creation, God wanted only one thing of His people--continual fellowship. He loves us. He desires for us to be alongside Him. This is why He has been making provisions for us from the very beginning. He clothed us when we realized we were naked. He gave us Christ to cover us in every way, to see us as the perfect child He has created us to be. SO there is absolutely NOTHING that you did or said or thought that would bring God to grievously punish you. Before Christ was born to cover us, discipline was His way. Discipline is still His way, but not in a damning way.I was pretty mad at God in the beginning of my grief. I couldn't understand why he would take a young and viral son of mine who had so much potential in this world to make a difference. I prayed for Joey ALL THE TIME. At the same time I was praying for the Lord to do whatever he must to make me a vessel for His Kingdom purpose. When Joey died I thought the Lord had answered my prayer by stripping me of my son. Maybe He did. But if he did, he didn't do it for the purpose of hurting me or Joey. In time the Lord showed me that my focus was too grounded in what is temporary and only of this world. When I was praying for protection and healing, etc, I was thinking that the protection I was praying for meant that Joey would be spared from all harm, especially death. And I envisioned physical healing. But what God showed me instead was that His protection over Joey meant bringing him to his eternal home, alongside Jesus. And the healing wasn't physical, but a spiritual wholeness, perfected in glory, as the Scriptures say it will be. So when I look back now there is only one of two ways it could be: 1) Either God was wrong, or 2) My prayer focus was set primarily on what I envisioned for life here on Earth that would bring me happiness and contentment. I wasn't even thinking about life that goes on way beyond this temporary one. SO ultimately my lesson was finding that we have KINGDOM purpose to be lived here on Earth. Kingdom living isn't only for after we die and rise again with Christ to eternal life. SO now I can literally see in my heart that Joey is fully alive, fully safe, fully perfected, fully everything he was always meant to be. I can't see him with my eyes or touch him with my hands, but I certainly can see him in my heart and know that when I am living with Kingdom purpose in mind and heart that I am doing the very exact same thing Joey is doing right now and always...forever!I think too much emphasis in the organized religious churches is placed on "works". If we don't measure up to this standard, or if we are not behaving in a fully Christ-like manner when we are stricken with death, then we aren't good enough to get into Heaven. I believe fully in my heart, without a breath of doubt, that is nonsense. If that's true, then Christ came here for nothing. He failed. A big ZERO! And that is simply NOT TRUE! Christ finished the work of works necessary to make us righteous before Father God. He bore the burden of our necessity to be cleansed over and over again after a mistake. Now, that doesn't mean we should run around and selectively live out what we believe, while discarding what we don't like about faith along the way. But it does mean that we are human. We make mistakes. We fall to pressures of the world. We lose our sight line to Christ sometimes and become vulnerable and weak. If we have been received into God's grace and saved, can we lose our salvation by having lost our direction? NO! We cannot lose the gift God has given us. It is still hidden deep within us, like a mustard seed (as Rody said). This is why fellowship with godly people is important, to edify and encourage us in the faith. But this world is a tough place to live. And if we believed the nonsense the church spews out about having to be prefect in works before God at the point of our death in order to be saved, then I would suppose that 98% of the world's population would go straight to hell. I just cannot even begin to imagine that Jesus death on the cross and resurrection would yield only 2% or 20% even. That would be like saying God's plan failed. It's just NOT SO!Dear Rhonda, please be at ease and seek the Lord with all your heart. Ask him to show you in your heart a vision of Westley there with him. I believe the Lord will do that.The loss of your son is NOT about your faith. But how you respond moving forward is very much about your faith. There are only two option: 1) move closer to the Lord, seeking His peace and comfort, and his ways in how to survive this world until you are reunited again with Westley in the presence of the Lord, or 2) run away from God, curse him, and not believe the promises he has given to His people from the beginning of our existence. It sure is easier said than done sometimes to gird up our shield of faith, our sword of truth, our breast plate of righteousness and so on, and to know without a doubt that the helmet we wear has Salvation written on it by his blood. But these are gifts God gives to us every single day to cover us from what is tempting and not of Kingdom value. It is our choice to take his gifts or to say no thanks. But even if we have refused on a bad day, because we've been angry or troubled, He is still waiting with his merciful heart for us to rise at the next opportunity. His mercies are NEW EVERY DAY! EVERY DAY! He hasn't left us or forsaken us. He is with us all the time. But He will not force himself on us. He waits as patiently as I could ever hope to imagine, because he loves us THAT much. SO if we've been graced by His salvation, he will never take it away just because we've stumbled on a given day, week, etc.If you haven't prayed like you should, give those burdens to the Lord. If you still can't pray, ask him to pray for you. The Spirit prays in our steed when we cannot, if we desire the Lord's covering. Ask God to release you from the burden of your guilt. And when he removes it, do not ask for it back. These things he will gladly do for you, if you want him to. I say this to be an encouragement to you; to tell you that you do not have to carry such a heavy weight of guilt for what has been out of your control. We most certainly have the power of prayer. But so often we don't know truly what that means. Misunderstanding leads us to confusion and wavering faith when we seek answers to our prayers that are of our own image and not of the will of God. He doesn't punish us for that. He actually waits and hopes that we will seek his direction, to be able to pray in line with His will. Ask Him about that. Find some quiet time for yourself, and have that deep conversation with the Lord. It's OK if you cry, yell, and shake your fists at him. David, writer of the Psalms did at times. I'm certain my fists beat against his chest over and again, yet he loved me and soothed me, and brought me to that place where I could be healed. He is good like that.Maybe you aren't quite there to receive all I have said. But know it is spoken in Truth and love. We don't have to be perfect about anything because Jesus is. We just need to seek the One who has been wooing us from the moment we took our first breath. Since Jesus lived and died and rose again, God would never hurt us or allow us to die from this world because he is angry with us. We see death from were we stand. But a life in Christ (regardless of whether in the moment it looks perfect or not) comes home to his glory as soon as that last breath on earth is breathed. If we can at the very least imagine what that looks like, we would not grieve so hard for what our child is missing here on earth. Of course we miss our child. This is the sadness we carry. But along with that sadness, we can carry the hope of reunion, the peace of their salvation, and the image of the Kingdom in our hearts. That is good medicine for our souls to heal by....It's difficult to post all that my heart contains on a small web board in one sitting. I do hope we can continue the journey of loss and healing in a way that would make our children's spirits sing.... Lord bless you and guide you into peace that surpasses understanding,and the kind of comfort only He can bring. HUGS & Prayers!!! ~Claudia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 No he would not take our babies, I agree! he is perfect, kind and Holy, taking/killing is evil it is sin. God cannot sin! When you can't pray or don't know what to pray "the spirit makes intersession for us" that's what scripture says! I feel like my prayers are dull and dumb a lot of the times. But as scripture says the Spirit makes intesession, I just need to remeber that! I talk to God off an on all day and night. It's normal for me to walk Sassy and talk out loud while I see the mtns, coulds, sky. I find comfort in that. Another thing I do that I cannot live without is praise music every morning and thorughout the day. It's been pretty neat because ever since I started doing that I've awoke with a song of praise on my lips. I consider that a powerful means of getting me through this. But again that is an Elaine way, or it seems to be working for me. There's times with Michael gone and getting hurt that I am on the edge, it is VERY hard on me. But I have to continualy give it over, that is something I am not good at. I know I question God a lot and ask him if he is hearing me, igoring me myself, that is my lack of faith though because he says in his word he does. I just have not gotten it through this thick head yet. I'm praying for ya girl! PeaceElaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members westleysmom Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Claudia-I know what you're telling me is true. I just haven't been able yet to let go of my anger and disappointment. I know it is the highest form of pride to be angry at God, but that is how I feel. Like if I let go of my anger, I am saying its okay. It is not okay, it is not even close to okay. I'm just so tired. Grief wears you out and you just can't think straight. I thank you for listening to me rant and for your godly advice. I don't share these thoughts with people around me, because I don't think they'll understand. They'll think I'm going to hell, they don't know I feel like I'm already there. Except for my friend from High School whose son died 12 days before Westley. I didn't even know it when I called to tell her, she just burst into tears and told me about her son. He and Westley both died in their sleep after they had been out with friends. How does that even happen that the only friend I still keep up with from HS has a son a year younger than mine and they die within 2 weeks of each other the same way? That's when I decided it was all a freaking nightmare and surely I would wake up soon. But it wasn't and I haven't, at least not yet. I had them play a song at the service called "When God Ran" about the prodigal son. If I pray anything I pray that God welcomed him with open arms. I'll try to pray that and get back on speaking terms with Him.Elaine-thanks for opening the conversation about this, when I first came to the boards, I saw this place, but there didn't seem to be anybody posting here much, so I mostly stuck to the Loss of Adult Child. I love all the people over there, but I wasn't sure whether to talk about stuff like this on there or not. Because everybody doesn't hold the same beliefs, and I haven't been entirely sure what I believe myself anymore. Take care,Rhonda Westley's Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Rhonda,You are so welcome. I know that this is where I belong!! I am AMAZED at Claudia's insight, wisdom, comfort, knowledge and all the rest!! I too am and have been so angry. There are times when I wonder at Daniel, he lost his twin, they were super close for 17 yrs!! I mean tight. Those two had an amazing bond, something happened when Joseph went to Wy to live cuz he needed to be with Daniel, as he said, he needed his twin. By then, Daniel was on his own course of life. Something I tried to explain to Joseph before he left, as it is a part of growing up a bit of a normal separation if you will, but assured him they would come together again and be close with time/maturity. You and I know, all of us mothers (especially mom's) know what it is like to lose part of your very soul, or that is what it feels like when u lose a child. I think Daniel feels that too... I hurt for him, pray for him all the time and pray he will come home to Christ. I have been so beat up by life, the church and so on, all I can say is the reason I am not on drugs, legal or illegal, an alcoholic, or dead is because of Jesus. He has not let me go and was there when I went back to him. Just recently I came to realize that even when I am GOOD, thinking I am walking with and staying close to the Lord, I am STILL not good enough, I can't be, that stuff is LAW, that is why Jesus came and when God looks at me, he sees' Jesus his son. I've found a comfort with him that is available no where else. I'm glad for that. I grieve right along with you Rhonda. I am going to pray for ya right now too. peace my friend. Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 10, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Rhonda and Elaine, You both are on my heart and in my prayers often. I know it doesn't feel right to be angry with God, but trust me when I say, "He understands, and He is not angry back at you." I stayed angry directly at Him for at least 3 months. And then I stayed angry in my heart and indirectly at him for at least several more after that in my early grief. I look back on it now and am grateful for His loving grace and mercy. Even when I was angry and blind to Him, he was working in me and loving me. He is for you too. SO don't beat yourself up. We can't get to the other side of grief unless we travel through it. It is NOT an easy path, and one that many people seem to get stuck and lost in for a very long time. But I believe, by witness of my own testimony, that He is BIGGER than our grief. When we finally do surrender to His care and mercy along the journey, we find so much comfort with Him there, even when we don't realize it. Hind sight is always 20/20, as they say. SO all we can do in the moment is hold on tight to whatever we can grab hold of--the Lord, a friend, someone willing to be there for us, whatever it takes--and ride out the waves of grief as they come and go. I promise in time that the waves get shorter and less often. But it's going to take time. Each step in recovery and healing through our loss is a process. Sometimes we take one step forward and three steps back. But please do not be discouraged, Sisters! Eventually, with encouragement and love, we can find our way into the light again.Ye though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death... I hang onto the hope of reaching the mountain peak one day... Where the sun is shining and the flowers are blooming once more.Much love, hugs and prayers!! ~Claudia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members msroderskie Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 To all my sisters,My heart is aching upon reading all of your stories. We have been through a certain sort of "hell" in losing children, but I don't think these horrible griefs come from the hand of God. Jesus came to bring life and that more abundantly, and that is ultimately a spiritual statement, not a guarantee of a full earthly life. I think that teachings that tell us we can have some sort of "power" in our words or other hocus pocus are based on someone's experience that worked out that way. I'm not saying God would never use someone's words, in His will, spoken in faith. He may have done this on some chosen occasions. But extending that into some sort of spiritual law is bogus. When you look at it, God does some miraculous healings to this day. I've read of such documented occurences where a person recovers miraculously from a terminal illness for example. However, most people die when they are terminally ill. Those people do not experience a miracle in physical healing, but we have no way of measuring what results they experience from the clouds of prayers surrounding them. Jesus said, "IN this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." I'm thinking that if this "speaking our world" aright is true, the early church really missed it as they were tortured, burned, thrown to the lions, etc. Our part is to simply believe Him with childlike faith no matter what is happening to us. I know that is the most difficult thing to do when you've lost a child, believe me. At some point it still boils down to putting simple trust in the Lord. It's the only thing that keeps me sane.Rhonda, I can identify SO MUCH with your worries for Westley, your feelings of guilt, and of wondering if you should have done something just a little differently so that things would have turned out differently. It has taken me years to learn to handle those feelings. By the grace of God I've learned to simply leave it in His hands and choose to trust Him for my boys. This has taken place over a long period of time - my first son Philip died in 2001 and my second son Matt died in 2003. So I've had several years to struggle with this. There have been enormous waves of guilt that nearly sunk me. I was convinced it was all my fault. I was the one who could no longer stay in my painfully dysfunctional marriage after adulteries and more, so I left. I was the one who did not realize that my older son Phil needed me to be an in-your-face Mom, and I was just the opposite, staying by the sidelines when he didn't seem to want my input. I was quiet and waiting, while I think he needed me to be loud and inserting myself into his life more. Even now that guilt begins to creep up. But I now have a habit of turning it over to our loving, merciful, kind God. He has all the answers. I just can't know them all now. My husband has led me patiently through the whole guilt conversation many times. Steve helps me to realize that it's kind of ridiculous for me to think that the all important ME could have, GOD-LIKE, made a difference in the date of my sons' deaths. (Steve has gently suggested that that idea could be just another form of pride.) Jesus says that the Father knows when each sparrow falls. I have to believe that my sons died when it was appointed for them to die. That will never feel right to a Mom or Dad, but sometimes it happens in this fallen world. Claudia, I was devastated to read of how Joey died. Somehow I had never been aware of the nature of his accident and it broke my heart. My dear sister...God has done an amazing work in you. I guess that He has done a miraculous SPIRITUAL healing in you. Thanks for the clarifying words about trusting God for the whole big picture - not just this earthly life. God always uses you in your postings and I know you don't want the praise -- so I'll say, Thank you Lord!OK this post is long enough, so I will try to briefly tell the story of my sons in a second posting, since Elaine asked.Love in Christ,Rody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members msroderskie Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Here is what happened to my sons:My ex and I had divorced when Phil was 14 and Matt was 10. I also have two daughters - Jennifer, who was off to college, 21 at the time of divorce (had a different Dad). Michaela was 18 when we split up. Because my ex was such a powerfully manipulative personality I chose to leave the family home to establish my own place. When I moved out Michaela wanted to go with me, it was assumed Matt would go with me and only Phil stayed with his Dad. Phil being 14, a judge would have given him that choice. I talked to 2 lawyers and 2 counselors about the situation, and I let Phil stay at his Dad's rather than risk alienating him more by fighting him. Point number one in the guilt parade: Phil must have been trying to keep me from moving out by announcing that he was staying at Dad's. But I left anyway, making Phil feel abandoned. I lived only a few miles away and the boys were constantly back and forth between houses, but that did not comfort me later. After six years of this situation, Phil was not finding his way. He'd dropped out of high school and was working crummy jobs here and there. He lived in Ohio for a while, working as a painter with his uncle who was kindly trying to help him. By age 20 Phil had found out he liked working outside in landscaping. He also dreamed of making movies one day. But he did not seem to take my advice seriously when I mapped out some ideas for reaching that dream. I think he had little confidence. Phil was our tender, sweet kid, who never wanted to hurt anyone, but sometimes became frustrated and angry. He had confessed faith in Jesus, as all my kids did, when he was old enough to understand salvation. He was back in our hometown at age 20 because his girlfriend was there. I remarried that year and moved to a town about one hour away from the hometown, where Matt, now 16, decided to stay with his Dad and Phil.On the evening of March 6, 2001 Phil had an argument with his girlfriend down at the city pier (a large cement pier that juts into the local harbor on Lake Erie). After the argument, he jumped into his Dad's car (his own was broken down and would not have had the power to follow through with Phil's next moves), and he raced towards the end of the pier (girlfriend was with her cousin, not in the car). Phil was signaling that he was so distraught that he wanted to drive off the pier. In the last few moments before the accident he tried to make the u-turn back to land, so that he would not go into the water. Apparently he thought better of his impulsive move and tried to pull out of the situation. I believe in those last seconds he called on Jesus to help him. That night there had been a slight snow and under that there was some frozen water that had blown up from the lake. Phil couldn't stop the car, it flipped over, landing on it's roof in the lake and sank quickly. Phil probably was knocked out no seat belt. This was March, so the water was literally one degree above freezing. Rescue firemen were at the pier within minutes, but they had wrong equipment. They had buoyancy suits that keep you up in cold water, instead of proper diving suits for an underwater rescue. My ex and my son Matt were down at the pier within minutes of the rescue people getting there. So they stood waiting, as it appeared that something was being done to get Phil out of the water with two divers floating there. They figured someone else was below that water, but there was no one below the water except Phil. As time wore on they began to ask things like, "why isn't he out yet? Why aren't you helping my son/brother?" The police held people back when they appeared to want to jump in the water. In fact, all the divers could do was wait for a diver with the right equipment to drive from 40 minutes away. That diver was in no hurry to get his suit on when he arrived at the scene - just one more cruelty. This was reported by my daughter MIchaela, who was the third family member to arrive at the pier. So three family members were there when they pulled Phil out of the water. Michaela had to be held up from collapsing when they pulled him out about 45 minutes after the accident. She could not believe how limp he was. She tells me that Matt had walked away and did not see when they pulled Phil out. I think she's just mollifying me. I was trying to keep track of what was happening by cell phone as we raced to the hospital where they were taking Phil. Many friends and family members were standing around in the cold outside the hospital emergency room waiting for word on Phil's condition. The doctor and staff worked on him for upwards of 2 hours. We were told by an acquaintance who was working the emergency room that night, that everyone in the room was crying as they worked on Phil. We were able to stand immediately outside the frosted window to the room where Phil was. At one point I could see the outline of someone who had gotten up on the gurney and was straddling Phil, doing CPR. I had to walk away then. This is still so difficult to write. The pain never stops; God alone can give you the grace to live with it. They never restarted Phil's heart. We were all allowed into the room to say goodbye. I remember numbly wondering what this was going to do to Matt. He went home with his Dad that night. [in a counseling session several months later I found out that Matt and his Dad got very drunk together that night.] We chose to go home with my daughter Jen, the only other person who did not have another adult in the house to lean on. We slept a few restless hours. One thing that ground down my soul was to wake up to the first morning after losing my son. It was a different horrendous world, complete with a front page photo of Phil's car being pulled out of the water.Steve and I moved back to my hometown within a couple months, to be closer for Matt, hoping he would move in with us, rather than stay with his Dad. He also dropped out of school, developed anxiety problems and went to paint in Ohio as his older brother had. When he came back to town in late December he finally took us up on the offer and stayed with us. He was 18 and I was having a hard time talking him into seeing a doctor about his depression. Didn't feel I could force him as an 18 year old. I of course counseled him to call on the Lord in all situations. At one point I called my doctor, a wonderful physician from Columbia who I thought Matt would listen to concerning treatment for depression. Her staff told me that she was not taking new patients, but I knew she would probably see Matt, since she knew about Phil. So I wrote a heartfelt letter and as I expected, she responded by calling us on a Monday. But Matt had killed himself just two days before. My poor doctor could hardly face me, and cried whenever she did see me for several visits after that. Even she felt guilty. Matt had begun to blame himself for not getting around the police to rescue Phil. Also while staying with us Matt had been in a stupid street fight one night and received a head injury with some bleeding on the brain. That night the entire family, in 4 cars, at 4:30 in the morning, made the one hour trip to the hospital where he was transferred. We wanted to be SURE that Matt knew we were all there and that we loved him. I stayed at the hospital all day with him and could not leave the next night, New Years Eve. We watched fireworks from the hospital window, my last New Years Eve with Matt. As a result of the head injury Matt had lost his senses of taste and smell. This depressed him more, since the insensitive neurologist told him it could be permanent. IMagine being told that you may never again taste food when your whole life is ahead of you. We collected anecdotes from people about how they had recovered their sense of taste after a head injury. We tried to encourage Matt in any way that we could. On February 8, 2003 Matt shot himself under his jaw with a shotgun that was owned by a friend of his. He had gotten very drunk one night at a party, had trudged across town and apparently broke through a window into the friend's house. The friend came home to find Matt in his living room, kneeling, propped up on the gun. We cannot be entirely sure that Matt was the only one present when he died. It's possible the friend was in the room, or even took part. The local police department is not exactly filled with CSI experts. When I hear of people's efforts to prevent suicides I respect those efforts very much. They may be able to save some people. In our case, even though Matt knew he could call on a few dozen people at ANY time of day or night, and that everyone he knew would help in any way they could, we still lost him. Matt himself had previously talked a friend out of suicide. My daughter has a friend who has been clinically depressed her whole life and has tried suicide a couple times. This friend tells us that when you get that low, it does not matter that you know you are loved by everyone around you. You just can see no way out in that state of mind.I was very numb emotionally for at least a year after Matt died. I think that numbness has played a large part in my grief journey, and it's been a blessing. Letting myself stay in a numb state can also be a negative, leaving me to skate along without doing the work of grief. Grieving for two children who died in related incidents takes a toll. I wish I didn't have to work, though I work for a really nice company and love my co-workers as true friends. I'm constantly dealing with physical problems that I don't think I would have at this juncture of life, if my boys hadn't died. Elaine, I will pray for your son MIchael, being that he had the horrible task of finding his brother's body. That is too much to bear, but God can get him through it. Do all you can to support him, pray and leave it in God's hands. IN this world we will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for Jesus has overcome the world. I know - I'm repeating myself purposely.All of God's ways are perfect. He will show us the answers some day. This is an awful long post!!Love in Jesus to all my grieving sisters,Rody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Rody,I am so sorry! So very, very sorry! It's obvious as to how you have gotten through this, that is for sure. There is so much I can identify with your story. Divorce, depression of kids (though I did not know it) drinking at dad's. I mean what is UP WITH THAT??? I have NO bragging rights but under my roof by the GRACE of God, early high school graduation, early college accomplishment, awards by Sentate & Legislature in person, interviews with PBS, volunteer work by all three boys for most of their lives. Again not my doing but that was life under my roof. Then woo hoo we go to dad's and get constantly pounded??? I so DON'T get it. I don't get why his dad is NOT a parent though he's fathered three sons! It makes me want to scream!! I am so sorry about the head injury thing too, having experience with that I can always share with others. I have a story about that at www.brainstorming4us.com if you go to survivors stories, click on Elaine Martinez, that is a short version of some of my life with brain injury. I am still in constant grief over all those lost years, lost memories. I mean I don't remember parts of my life before my wreck as well as very fragmented after and at times of high stress it takes a toll on me even now. Your story is so sad, and I am so amazed at where you are now. It shows me there is healing, hope and maybe joy in something in life? God bless you and thank you for posting your story. You are in my prayers and hey we will meet in heaven. Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members msroderskie Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Elaine, I just read your account of your accident and recovery process from TBI. What an amazing story. God has definitely given you a lot of strength. I can identify with much of your life as well, though I've never gone through an excruciating recovery from an accident as you have. It's kind of amazing that you lived through it, really.I also identify with your love of horses. I had horses (only one at a time) when I was a teenager. Just for pleasure riding. But I also got to ride or work with about 60 horses over the years at the farm where I boarded. This year I planned to get a horse again, but I'm holding off for now. I live in town and don't know if I want us to take on the expense of boarding right now. I'm really glad that you found this thread. There really is a lot of meaningful support among the sisters here. It always seems to be women who stick with this thread, though there have some men who've dropped in as well.Love in Christ,Rody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members westleysmom Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Rody and Claudia,Thank you both for telling your stories. I am so sorry for your losses, both of you. I have found that it is hard for me sometimes to tell people about the events of Jan 13. I can see that day with crystal clarity, almost every moment of it, and I relive it sometimes in my daydreams. But I find it very hard to talk about at length. I am glad to have found you here. I have told Leah on the Adult Child thread that I will pray for her, and that's what I'm going to do. I hope it will help me to get started talking to God again. Thanks for your support and advice, I know you both have been where I am. And we're all here together. Peace to you (and Elaine!)Rhonda Westley's Mom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Rhonda,Just prayed for them, their safety, safe escape, wisdom, salvation, protection and all else I can think of! These past FEW days have been an enourmous help to me! I don't write Joseph's story anymore, got a saved copy and just go that route. Talking about it is another thing, I've got no one to talk to so I guess for me that's ez... I have had a LOT of time to think since Michael's been gone and to tell the truth I am not so sure if that is good or bad.. I just want him HOME!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 10, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 10, 2010 Oh I almost forgot again. But several months before I lost Joseph I read a book called When God Dosen't Make Sense by James Dobson. I was reading that in relation to my accident. I finally felt like i had the time to expolre some emotional healing where that was/is concerned. I will tell you it totally OPENED my eyes to loss of all sorts including grief! It is not a large book, but it has helped me enourmously! Thought I'd share that.Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 12, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 Good morning everyone,I only have limited contact with Michael now and it will be that way until he leaves NC. He is in a place where cell reception isn't so good. He was hurting yesterday again. They drove from Penn to NC. I need some specific prayer on what to do about my life. That being said, it is my employment situation I am speaking of. There isn't anything up here where I am and there won't be. I mean that work in these areas has always been tough. It was timber and mining, and always has been. With the housing market what it is and will be timber is gone. Mining is generational and only so many are employed in those areas anyway. I am physically unable to do them. So.... I have a good bit of education that I would like to use and am saving for a move. I just don't know where!! I am praying and askng God for guidance of course. So far I have Texas, its booming there and has been, housing is decent too. Ft. Collins Co, job market looks good, but it sprawls into Denver, which isn't necessarily bad. But housing concerns, rent looks OK, but what kind of neighborhoods are they? What is crime in the schools like is more of a concern for me with Michael being a Jr. this year. Third choice is the Tri-Cities Wa, jobs look OK, not sure though, housing, another not real clear on though I am researching on line. The crime rate depends on where you live too. But its hot there. I don't like it miserably hot, was in the High Desert in Ca for 6.5 yrs and being from N country it does not make that type of transition very good on a long term basis. The same can be said for too much cold weather, it messes with me and how I feel with all the metal I have in my body. So does real wet weather like we have up here where I'm at now. So tall order here. Another thing is I don't know weather to just MOVE or get a job them MOVE. With Michael in school, that is difficult, but can be done. Still it have to be a weekend thing until I was out of the place I am in. I have a 2 month cushion on my rent though, in other words I'm 2 months ahead so I'd have that time to get it done. Or should I just find a place where the three top items, jobs, crime, housing, look decent and then get a job! Your prayers, ideas, etc are greatly appreciated. PeaceElaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 12, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 12, 2010 Elaine, I wish I had some wisdom or insight to share about moving. These days, unless I am forced to move beyond my control, I take everything in prayer to the Lord and seek his direction. It may sound wishy-washy, but I have tremendous peace in my decisions when I am certain they are Spirit-led and not merely what I want or prefer.I'll keep you in my prayers over this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 13, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 13, 2010 That's what I am doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 13, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 13, 2010 Everything is so small, so shallow, nothing that I see around me is of any great importance anymore. I avoid people. I don’t want to talk to anyone and at the same time I want to spare them from talking to me. If I don’t have something to say that is of any depth, meaning, I don’t want to talk. Fun, entertainment, and human/life pleasures are worthless in my sight right now. I don’t even care to eat, though I do. I don’t know what stage I am in. I was almost frantic when Michael didn’t text me for a few hours today. He and his dad are on their way to Wyoming from North Carolina and knowing how his father text’s when he is driving it scared me, not hearing from him. He was asleep. Is this how it is? Or is it magnified because Michael got into that wreck? One more week! Then I have to put up with Christmas travel to Cancun, oh that outtta be a joy! NOT! I can’t even watch a movie, I did that last night. August Rush was the title, a good movie about an orphan boy who is gifted with music and is convinced his parents are alive. He sets out to look for them by following the music. Of course I thought of Joseph, and recall his bright shiny face when watching him on the TBI interview. I’d forgotten he’d wanted to go to Italy to study for Architectural Engineering. His dad was not very for it, $$$$$$ was what Steve saw, guaranteed!! Joseph could have done it on scholarships, I’m positive of that! Instead, he felt he needed his twin, so he went to him, and ended up never coming back..What is it with them going to Wyoming and NEVER coming back??? I cried so much I woke with swollen eyes, looked like a monster! People that are acquainted with me pretend like the don’t see me in the store, I’ve never been rude to them, oh I’ve been fairly open about my faith, hope and trust… Why am I hated? I don’t go around hurting people, deliberately trying to do anything mean, I am very mindful of my tongue and don’t lash back, but turn the cheek. What am I doing WRONG? I want to run away and hide, I don’t want to come out anymore, I don’t want anyone to know me, I don’t want to do this life anymore. I am so tired. Joseph was smart, intitally he was the 'nerd' in school. After he got out and around Daniel's friends, he saw that was no way to fit in. Fitting in was being crazy, you'd do anything, be the party dude and the craziest!! He found that enabled him to fit in and look where it took him. Acceptance and love by his family and a 'few' others was not enough... He's just gone, he's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 14, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 One of the common denominators most all of us in grief suffer in is isolation. It's kind of a web, because on one hand we are comfortable in our isolation. We don't have to smile if we don't feel like it. We can cry and not worry about who is watching or what people think. We can sit and stare and not have to talk if we don't feel like it, because no one is there expecting anything from us. But on the other hand, the isolation is VERY lonely. It's cold. It's full of thoughts and mixed up feelings. And when we get brave enough to step out to where the rest of the world is, where the people are, we feel their quick glances, and see them run away, hoping that we didn't notice that they saw us. Or of they do approach us, we and they both clammer for the right words to say--usually neither of us saying much of anything. Occasionally we get the meaningful salutation and condolence, but more often we are treated as if our loss is contagious. People just can't "go there". It's too close to home. If they recognize our loss as being "in their face", then they must realize that "it could happen to them".These thoughts and feelings you are having, Elaine, are what we have all felt at one time or another, especially throughout early grief. Some of us deal with this for less time, and some longer. It really depends on various factors and degrees of our grief--like if there are other complicating factors and if we have a good support system. And faith certainly can play an important role as well. You are not alone in these thoughts and feelings. We ALL think and feel these things, and experience awkward and sadly rude moments with others in public who just don;t have a clue as how to confront this type of "monster". We aren't the monster. The pain of catastrophic loss is the monster. Many people don't know how to confront painful situations, so they turn around and walk away, choosing not to face the realness of it. We, of course, take it personally, as if we did something wrong or offensive. But we haven't. Losing a child is offensive! It's offensive to us. And it's offensive to people watching us. None of us can handle "thinking" about losing a child. But when it actually happens, we step beyond the unthinkable and into something far worse. People are uncomfortable with that. And that's a normal response. I think back to when a good friend I grew up with passed away in her late 20's. Her mother was so sad, so broken. I remember how she smiled at me through her tears, and asked me to come visit sometime. I said "OK". I never did. Why??? I look back on that now and think how chicken I was to face her and her grieving, aching soul. It was much too uncomfortable. Today, I TOTALLY get it! I wish I didn't, but I do.Elaine, you have the added stresses of long term injury recovery and disability. This makes your grief more complicated. You also have hard feelings about your ex-husband. That complicates things. And your fear for Michael's safety complicates things. Issues with Josephs twin as well. SO your grief is compounded into many factions rolled up into one great big ball of messy grief. I believe the only way you are going to be able to journey through the grief of losing Joseph is when you are able to strip/shed yourself of some of these other complications. Otherwise, grief will consume your life. You may feel you don;t have much of a life right now. But you do have a life. You have a legacy to continue of being Elaine, and being Joseph's mother, and mother to your surviving sons as well. I have always said no one loves Joey more than I do. And when I am gone from this world, no one will strive as hard as I do to keep his memory alive...to honor him, remember his life here, etc. We MUST carry on. They would want us to! And our surviving children need us to!I believe a supernatural healing can take place in every aspect of your compounded, complicated grief. I believe if you are willing to give over little pieces at a time to God, and let go, your fear will begin to lift and eventually subside in your fear of what happens to your sons. You will develop the faith and understanding that they are no longer in your hands. They are in God's hands. You cannot control anything about their next breath or action. All you can do is love them, and be there for them when they reach out to you. You can no longer care for them like when they were little. They are grown up now, of independent minds and wills for their life. They did not "abandon" you. They just grew out of needing protection like a small child. They needed to spread their wings and fly on their own. Some choose to stay in the nest longer, and occasionally that turns out OK. But oftentimes a co-dependency develops, and that isn't healthy for them or for you. YES! They left the nest at a younger age than you had hoped or anticipated. That happens sometimes. But it isn't anything you did wrong. It was just their way of taking the reins of their lives. Even when they went out West, they didn't go with an attitude of letting their dad hover over them. They maintained their independence. They fought for it. My Joey was like that too--very head and heart strong. He was so strong willed, I couldn't stop him from doing what he wanted in the moment if I had a million good reasons, if that's what he had already set his mind and will on doing. He was "Just Joey". I tried not to take it personally. It was a challenge at times. And where your health is concerned, you are still grieving the "old you" before your accident. SO now it's the grief of losing who you were then, and also losing who you were as Josephs' mom. You are still Joseph's mom, you know. HUGS!!! But at some point you will need to let go of lost dreams and dream up some new ones....when you are ready. And as for the ex...you'll have to surrender that you just can't do anything about his texting and driving, or his attitude, or much of anything concerning him. You could try talking to him, if you feel he would receive what you have to say. Otherwise, all you can do is pray that Michael will be delivered safely to where he is going. God is with him too. It's so much easier said than done. I know! And really, only time in a step-by-step process will help to move things along. But don't give up. Life is worth the pain. Love is worth the pain. Getting to watch your boys that are still here as they make new and exciting discoveries and choices in their lives will be so worth the journey. It may not be easy, but it isn't all bad. There is so much beauty still, if we can just look for it through the soggy tears.You cannot measure your grief by the stages you are in or the depth of your feelings and thoughts, because the reality is that grief is its own machine. We can suffer one stage at a time, and then go back and forth between stages. We can suffer multiple stages at once. It;s so unpredictable. All I can say with certainty is that it's painful...very, very painful. It's hard work to get up and face each day. We lose motivation and the ability to concentrate. We can't multi-task like we used to. These are common psychological affects of grief due to catastrophic loss. I felt so hopeless for quite a while that I would never be able to get back to where I was. The truth is that after 4 years, I still can't multi-task or concentrate like I used to. And there are days when I struggle to be motivated to do anything. But with time, it has improved. I have become OK with knowing that I may never get back to all of that. I actually have learned so much along my journey that I am beginning to feel alive again....joyful, and hopeful for things that are yet to come in this life. It has taken a while. It's a process....baby steps before leaps. It may feel like you're stuck at times. And you may well be. But it doesn't have to be permanent. It's just a point in tome along the journey. Each point in time is another moment to sit still, take a breath, and say "OK, I got through this minute". And then it will be, "OK, I got through this hour". And sometime it will be "OK, I got through this day". But that takes time...a step by step, moment by moment, day by day process. And don't forget to ask God to help you along the way, because he is with you and He loves you. And when you realize a closeness to Him, you will feel a deeper closeness to Joseph as well. This I do know from my own journey...Hoping for you! And praying for you!! Your sister and friend, ~Claudia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members msroderskie Posted August 14, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Elaine, I've copied parts of your message: Everything is so small, so shallow, nothing that I see around me is of any great importance anymore. I avoid people. I don’t want to talk to anyone and at the same time I want to spare them from talking to me. If I don’t have something to say that is of any depth, meaning, I don’t want to talk. Fun, entertainment, and human/life pleasures are worthless in my sight right now. I don’t even care to eat, though I do. People that are acquainted with me pretend like the don’t see me in the store, I want to run away and hide, I don’t want to come out anymore, I don’t want anyone to know me, I don’t want to do this life anymore. I am so tired. I can completely identify with all of your comments above Elaine. We've all had those feelings of isolation, of even being rejected by others because of our tragedies. You feel like a leper when someone turns away from you in the grocery store. And they truly don't get it, and you hope they never have to. I can remember going back to work after my first son died, winding down to the quiet part of the day and listening to the mundane tapping of computer keys in the quieting office. I just wanted to stand up and scream "What are we all DOING HERE??? What's the point? My son is dead!" There is naturally a disconnect from the people around us who have not suffered such catastrophic loss. All I can say is that Claudia has given you some great advice. I remember how cold and meaningless it seemed when, in a grief group I'd be told that grief is a long journey, when they told me that someday I would feel some joy again, or that my sons would want me to carry on and be there for the people who are still here. Yet all those things are true, and you will find that out as you plod from one day to the next, just as Claudia said. You'll find, as a Mom, that God blesses you with strength through your role with your remaining sons. You will fight tooth and nail to be there for them, but in a way that understands you can't control pretty much anything, and never really did, frankly. But that will make you an even more awesome Mom than you've already been. God has much work to do in you and I know He won't let you give up. On the subject of our wish for control of our childrens' safety: Once I really thought it (The Worst - the death of my child) could not happen to me, and I think most parents are like that. "My kid can't die. That happens to other people and it's so sad, but not me." As parents we're all like adolescents psychologically, who think the worst can't happen to them. And the way we accomplish that bit of self deception is by banishing the idea from our minds, avoiding talking to bereaved parents, etc. Then when it does happen we are forced into this cruel new dimension where everything is different, we're living our nightmare, and no one else wants to get too close to us either. This is where God's Spirit can shine. We don't take it personally when we're snubbed, because we understand the fallen human condition. We draw closer to the Savior Jesus, because we know He's the one who has CONQUERED DEATH! God eventually brings glory to His Name by the way we handle this grief. Keep plodding along Elaine. God, the Ancient of Days, Creator of heavens and earth, is there with you, and I know He weeps with you. My hear goes out to you, dear sister. Love in Jesus Christ,Rody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 15, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 A great blog post on Loneliness..http://inspiringbetterlife.blogspot.com/2010/08/thriving-alone.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 15, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 Claudia,Grrr I just typed this big post and it got lost!! Anyway... I'm just gunna make this one short. You know all I want it a job I can take care of myself, to come home to the little dogs and have a day off to clean and unwind. I'd work six days a week if that's what it took. Once Michael is done with High school I lose a substantial amount of income and what is left is not enought o live on. I just want a chance. Ya maybe my grief is compounded, but I have no idea how to make it better, if I did, I'd do it! I go to God at least twice a day, everyday, and talk to him inbetween! I'm worn out with being beat up I guess. Thanks for the link, I'll look in to it. Though I'd not say I am 'lonely' been alone most of my life, I'm used to it. Though some support would have been nice throughout this, I find it's the same ol same, me. Things are so odd.. I mean I crashed, was in a comma, had some of my family do a bedside vigial, Did not know it at the time though. I don't recall any of my 2 month hospital stay. And in ten years not one of them has ever called me, sent a card or anything. Go figure that out?? But they bonded with my ex husband?? Now that's odd. SO much so that Memorial day they all wen tot Wy to remember Joseph. Who did not know/care for them in the first place. I never did get a sympathy card from any of them either. I did no evil to them, just don't get it.. Whatever though. I've been on my own since 12, and completly on my own since 14 so again, used to it. I went to town today, felt wierd, and couldn't wait to just come home. Came home and slept. I am still tired though. Maybe I'll go pick huckle berries tomorrow. The truck needs to run anyway. I just want to use the education I've worked so hard for. I just want to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members josephsmom90 Posted August 16, 2010 Members Report Share Posted August 16, 2010 Good news, prayers answered. Michael is back in Wyoming and he is doing better today. He said he didn't take any pain pills so that is great. He's on vicodin, and I just want him off all pain meds. Daniel got out of jail today but Michael does not know how or who, my suspicion is dad. Though Michael says he didn't. BUt anyway, Daniel still has his job and is headed back to Casper! Praise the Lord!! Answered prayers! I am missing Michael a lot! But I am missing Daniel, and Joseph ... I just miss my boyyyyzzzzzzzzzz. I still have a hard time with not ever hearing Jospeh's voice on the phone but Michael sounds just like him, I get teary eyed when I hear him on the phone.Elaine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 4everjoeysmom Posted August 28, 2010 Author Members Report Share Posted August 28, 2010 A very good article of faith in suffering...http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Very-Personal-Blessing-in-the-Midst-of-Suffering&id=2090308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members no40corysmom Posted September 4, 2010 Members Report Share Posted September 4, 2010 Claudia, that is a very good, insightful article. Thanks for sharing... I see that sadly we have some new members since I have last been on. Josephsmom90, I am glad you found this sight. YOu will find yourself to be blessed by a number of people here. When you need your batteries charged and recharged..this is the place.Rody, I have to say I don't think I ever knew the story behind your two sons. I'm soooo, sooo sorry. You continue to be so inspirational to me.This past spring was somewhat challenging for me. Cory would have graduated high school. The school and the kids were absolutely wonderful to us. They honored Cory in the most amazing way, and while it was difficult to go through, I would not have missed for anything, and I know, I KNOW that Cory was smiling down with his very amazing smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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