This & that

[Nancy2]

13 hours ago, Boggled said:

Widower2, okay, I didn't even notice there's an "afterlife" section for this site.   Guess I'll go look around on there.

Nancy2, I can't say I'm disillusioned with doctors and hospitals, because I've been leery of them for years ... ya can't be disillusioned with something you never had a lot of belief in to start with!   Healthy lifestyles, I still do some of that, the universe itself?  oh man, it's such a mystery.   But I can empathize with the feeling ... if your husband was riding a bike 30 miles several times a week, he must've been, at that time, in really great shape.

Boggled, Yes, my husband was in really great shape until his own body turned on him with a weird disease.  I still exercise a lot because, if nothing else, it makes me feel better, and I have never been overweight and don't want to start now.  This morning I was swimming and swimming to run away from the sadness in my head, but in the middle of all that swimming, I burst into tears because he is supposed to be here cleaning the pool and just being alive.  He used to put out bird  food for the hummingbirds.  Not me.  Still, this morning I saw a hummingbird and brand new flowers for the first time on this vine we have, and the hummingbird I guess was eating something from the flowers.  For a minute I felt like that was a sign from him, that he brought the hummingbird and new flowers to me, but maybe it is just nature.  I don't know.  It did make me feel happy amidst the sadness.

 

[Boggled]

1 hour ago, RichS said:

I think that novelists write these books because people buy them; and people buy them because it represents an escape (or fantasy) from the pains of the real world. There are different forms of entertainment or amusement that people flock to. This is one of them.

hunh, writer's guild is still on strike in Hollywood, I think.  Maybe some writer who has lost a beloved partner will write something ... "contemplation" seems to be the "plan," insofar as "that Revealed book by Michael Tymn" indicates ... here we are, 3/4 of the way through 2023, with the internet, with sites like this one for inspiration, this is a new age of instant  information, India has landed on the moon's south pole, some great writer presently unoccupied? ... write a novel about loss and don't end it with "boy meets girl?"  

There ARE other reasons, good reasons, to write, that don't necessarily involve money making.  Look at all of US, typing away!  Not for money making!  Because we're communicating something about "reality," something about "emotions," something about "who are we?"  Communicating with each other.  In this new way, not face to face, but across huge distances we're meeting in, compared to all the ages before ours, a new way.    

[Boggled]

6 minutes ago, Nancy2 said:

For a minute I felt like that was a sign from him, that he brought the hummingbird and new flowers to me,

That's supposed to be one of the signs.  I had gone out on our front deck to smoke a few drags on a cig (yeah of course I know not healthy) after having a bad crying episode, and a hummingbird came zipping over, hung there about 3 feet in front of my face and just hovered there for many seconds.  That I took as a sign.

[LMR]

5 hours ago, Boggled said:

Gator, we're all kind of "leftover people" now, right?  I looked up books about widows on our library's webpage and read a few ... BUT as someone mentioned, in novels, "suddenly some great stranger falls in love with her and everything's just great again,"  even novels seem to follow the same ol' same ol' "boy meets girl" theme.   As if there ain't no other answer.   C'MON, novelists!  aren't there any novelists out there who can write a book about some other way to "succeed?"  Anybody reading this, can you recommend any good novel about a widow or widower who finds a true path to happiness without meeting a new partner?????   

One of the books I remember liking is The phone box at the edge of the world. It's a lovely story based on a real phone box - the wind phone. Whilst one of the characters I recall found love, there were different stories, different losses. I dont keep many novels but I've kept this one. I think I must reread it.

[WithoutHer]

6 hours ago, Boggled said:

Afterlife should not be a separate topic, IMHO!!!!!   

 

@Boggled@widower2 I agree that there is no call to move these conversations. This topic is "This and That" and to me that means anything can go here. Just MHO. Every topic I've read since being here goes off course just through following a continued conversation. I admit it becomes distracting from the original topic but it happens. I find it troubling too when it has happened under my own posts but I've learned to accept that this the normal flow of a continuous conversation.

 

[widower2]

  

On 9/10/2023 at 2:59 PM, WithoutHer said:

@Boggled@widower2 I agree that there is no call to move these conversations. This topic is "This and That" and to me that means anything can go here. 

That's not this thread's intent. From the OP:  
*** I made this thread for anything that doesn't fit elsewhere***

My bold-facing for emphasis. Extended religious discussion and comments fit elsewhere, as already pointed out. People can't say whatever they want in the thread, or anywhere else on the site for that matter. As with most any other site on the internet, there are some limits and there are some rules for all. Of course, like most things, it's a question of degree, and I try to err on the side of caution, but we all must keep in mind that the reason there is a distinct place for such discussion on the site is that people on this site have many varying beliefs, so going on and on about an afterlife or God etc within general threads can make others feel somewhat uncomfortable. Or to put it another way: how would those of you with strong beliefs about the existence of an afterlife/God/etc feel about an atheist coming on one of these threads and going on and on about their beliefs? See what I mean? "Agree to disagree" sounds OK in theory, but the reality is that religion is just too much of a hot potato and it's far too easy for people's feathers to get ruffled and cat fights to start.

So again, please, it's one thing to make a quick passing comment as part of a thread, but if it goes on and on, I will take whatever action I feel appropriate (and take zero pleasure in it, believe me, since I know it can set me up as "the bad guy" and regret if it puts anyone off in any way). And again, you are free to discuss your beliefs to your heart's content...just please do so in the area of the site dedicated to that. Thanks!

 

[widower2]

2 minutes ago, Gator M said:

I welcome others talking about their beliefs or lack there of.  

That's great, but others may not feel similarly. Again it's just a very sensitive topic. 

 

Quote

Where do you draw the line?  Do meat eaters offend vegans?

I would say religion and politics, basically. This is not exactly an uncommon restriction on many sites and for the same reasons (too easily incites bickering etc).

[shawnt]

I agree .

I am agnostic at best but other people's faith and beliefs does not offend me, in fact it makes me happy for them that they have found something that gives them comfort.

[KayC]

When people's spirituality is such a part of them, it's hard to separate yourself from it.  I see no problem with someone alluding to it, but when they insert it in a overly way into every post and are trying to "convert others," that is an issue that needs dealt with.  I have seen it go overboard, and quite honestly, if that is the only thing you want to talk about, perhaps this is not the forum for you, or you should keep it to the spirituality thread.  We all need to respect each other's beliefs, I am a Christian but that doesn't prohibit me from interacting with others with different belief systems or none at all.  I just think we need to remember the primary focus of this forum is GRIEF, and respect each other.  Otherwise our hands are forced to do something we don't want to do.  Let's see some balance here!

1 hour ago, Nobody1 said:

Perhaps it would be more logical to start a thread on the topic of religion/afterlife within the loss of spouse/partner section. That way, people can participate freely on that subject matter without fear of being shut down. Anyone who is easily offended by the subject, need not enter the thread.

Great idea!

[widower2]

Exactly, thanks Kay. Again just trying to take everyone into account here. Some of us might be fine agreeing to disagree, but it might be harder for others and we need to maximize the comfort zone for all.

Appreciate the feedback, all. FYI I asked the Admins for an umpire call on this.  Please stand by!

[KayC]

On 8/20/2023 at 6:13 AM, RichS said:

My dad had Alzheimer’s and dementia for a number of years. Even though he and I didn’t have the closest relationship, I saw the different person he became as it slowly took over his mind.

I went through this with my mom, closest sister (I was her caregiver)...with my mom she reached the point where we had to sell her home and put her in a dementia care facility, which ate up all her $ except for $2,000 for burial).  Recently my uncles and my aunt also died of this horrific condition.  It's the hardest thing in the world to watch, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.  We basically have to enter their world.

[KayC]

And one point I want to mention, even in Christianity, God never shoved Himself on others!  

[DWS]

On 9/10/2023 at 8:13 AM, Boggled said:

BUT as someone mentioned, in novels, "suddenly some great stranger falls in love with her and everything's just great again,"  even novels seem to follow the same ol' same ol' "boy meets girl" theme.   As if there ain't no other answer.   C'MON, novelists!  aren't there any novelists out there who can write a book about some other way to "succeed?"  Anybody reading this, can you recommend any good novel about a widow or widower who finds a true path to happiness without meeting a new partner?????   

That is a good question and I often wonder whether the majority of us grievers live with the notion that the only real way out of painful grief is to find another person. Even all of those many TED Talks that I've watched seem to be by those who have suffered and survived terrible tragedy and grief but who now have new partners. Nothing wrong about that but there is a small hope inside of me that sorta does a deep dive when they reveal their new life...as if that is why they seem so much stronger now.

Yesterday, as I drove along a familiar street where Tom and I had done our walks together, I tried to picture myself with someone new walking beside me and my tears started to fall so that tells me that getting involved with someone new would only complicate things. Perhaps that may change down the road but I'm kinda stuck with this. I think conversing with other grievers is likely one of the best coping techniques. Leaning on those who need someone to lean onto too. Companions in grief. 

[widower2]

55 minutes ago, DWS said:

That is a good question and I often wonder whether the majority of us grievers live with the notion that the only real way out of painful grief is to find another person.

Nah. An understandable thing for some to do, but not required. I think one's specifics matter too; those older are less likely to do so. But it's all up to each person of course 

[shawnt]

I don't think it's a new partner that makes them stronger, it's the ability to look forward and anticipate better days.

I know I feel better when I am looking forward to something, almost anything, a lunch , a game, even work. When my mind is left on its own all I can do is count what has been lost, and that starts a cycle of memories that always lead to her death and once I am there it is hard to feel anything will ever be ok again and that leads to what is the point of doing anything , and of course once you get in that black pit it is hard to function at all.

[widower2]

To be honest, I've yet to see a movie I thought handled grief well. 

[widower2]

Given how many depressing/dark movies Hollywood has kicked out, I suspect it's something else, like they just don't have a clue. 

[RichS]

For better or worse, movies, TV shows and pop music often reflect the social trends and the mood the country is currently feeling.

[Roxeanne]

I saw Indiana Jones 5...!

I always appreciate those films: they are funny, ironic, screenplays that don't miss a beat...and Harrison Ford at his best! I always enjoy those movies...even this last one with him in his '80!

They make me laugh...and it is a great moment!

[DWS]

After watching the eight seasons of the old television series Monk over this past year, I was surprised at how well they presented the topic of Adrian Monk's (the central character) grief over his wife's death. It was a recurring theme throughout the show's episodes and was rarely mocked. The other main characters respected and honoured his grief which I found comforting. I enjoyed the series when it was on originally but hadn't seen it in years after it went into syndication. It was like a miracle for me that it began airing daily on Canada's Vision TV a few months after the loss of my partner. I found a warm connection to the main character...despite his annoying OCD tendencies...and wept along with him in the more tender moments of his loss. Unfortunately, the station removed it from its new programming season so I no longer have this to look forward to....but it was helpful to me.

[Boggled]

22 hours ago, Gator M said:

I think those stories of "happiness" after being widowed are very rare.   When we find that deep love, that God given soulmate, it's special.  How do you replace that?

Well you've made me wonder about whether all this idea that grievers can and do eventually arrive at "hope" may not be true?????   arrrrggghhhhh.   oh no.  I've been waiting for the "magic" to happen ... enough time passes and the grief at least gets better?  I HAVE found that the raw new grief was worse than this continuing grief, that hits in .. memory of something with him ... instant grief and crying.

and your earlier mention, Gator, that young people remarry after a death more often than old ones, also is making me think ... hmmm, the "ultimate happiness" for humans is to find a love and live with them ... but when they die, for a younger person, why not get past it and find a replacement?  (also for an older person, but older people don't have the sex drive that is a powerful force in younger people, IMHO!)  

Disillusionment, I THINK, is part of this grief.  That we had found the "ultimate" happiness and because we invested in, and BELIEVED in, that, we're disillusioned when we lose the person that we thought would be here until we both die together, or we die first, since we theoretically know that death eventually happens to all those "old people," but ... we are young!  that's all so far in the future, there aren't any easy answers, so just not worry about it!    ... and then it happens.  Suddenly there it is, the loved one is GONE, they don't come home from the hospital with us, we have to drive home alone!  to an empty house!  ... and that's if we're lucky to have a car to drive and a house to come "home" to!  (which I did).  It's a super-basic disillusionment.  "Basic" as in "underneath my expectations and beliefs in EVERYthing."  And it hits in the "faith" in our loved one, in the "faith" in the love that existed/still exists! between us;  ... is that love now carried on only by me?   Where did he go?  (I know, not allowed to even talk about that on here!  and it's such a basic question!  Basic to anybody who loves a person who died!)  Is he still "out there" somewhere, can I communicate with him through a medium?  (sorry but those questions are VERY real for me, though I haven't and probably won't, contact any mediums).  Will I meet him again, when I die?  (can I ask that on here?  sheeesh.)   So.  We've been hit with a "reality" we refused to face before the death, and that we don't know what to do about, and that flies in the face of our faith in everything in our lives.  

[KayC]

On another note, we're going to be near 90s all week then drop to 60s, crazy!  Glad I didn't put my A/C away!

[RichS]

54 minutes ago, KayC said:

On another note, we're going to be near 90s all week then drop to 60s, crazy!  Glad I didn't put my A/C away!

high 50's thurs and fri night in n.c. yeah!!

[KayC]

It's been 40s/50s at night here every night for a while.

[KayC]

6 degrees hotter than predicted...

[widower2]

I'm more than a little hesitant to "go there" again, but given it came up multiple times in this thread:

Quote

Perhaps it would be more logical to start a thread on the topic of religion/afterlife within the loss of spouse/partner section. That way, people can participate freely on that subject matter without fear of being shut down. Anyone who is easily offended by the subject, need not enter the thread.

Kay has done this and pinned it to the top of this section of the site FYI to anyone who didn't see it. Please keep religious comments and discussion there. Thanks! 

[shawnt]

Here is my 2 cents.

I think some people's faith is so ingrained in them that every thought and expression has it in it. I think taking that voice away from them, here of all places is wrong. To silence them denies the essence of this space.

Let's not nit pick, let's just listen.

If it ever devolves to preaching or arguing then shut it down, but I have never seen that here.

[KayC]

This is how they want it.

[widower2]

3 hours ago, shawnt said:

Here is my 2 cents.

I think some people's faith is so ingrained in them that every thought and expression has it in it. I think taking that voice away from them, here of all places is wrong. To silence them denies the essence of this space.

Let's not nit pick, let's just listen.

If it ever devolves to preaching or arguing then shut it down, but I have never seen that here.

This isn't nit picking, nobody is trying to take anything away from anyone or silence them, and this isn't just about preaching or arguing. As I've said before, this is about being mindful and considerate of everyone on the site and varying beliefs. The essence of this Partner space is grief from losing a partner, not religious or spiritual beliefs. There is an entire section of the site devoted to that, and now there is a thread in this partner area dedicated to that.

 

1 hour ago, Gator M said:

Who is THEY?

The people who own this site. As I've also said before, that is why they created the Spiritual/Religious section of the site in the first place.

[widower2]

2 hours ago, Gator M said:

And no one goes there.   Most of us post to either mourn or help.  

I can't force people to go somewhere. If they choose not to, that's their choice. But there is a place to go for such discussion on this site and that's the place.

Quote

GriefShare is Bible centered, AA is spiritually centered, Celebrate Recovery...

Good for them. But this isn't GriefShare or AA or Celebrate Recovery, so that is irrelevant.

Quote

It has been said many times before, a believer can't separate his/her faith.  It's who we are.

You continue to ignore that not everyone who comes to this site is necessarily a "believer."

Quote

There is a lot of stuff posted that I disagree with.  I CHOOSE not to get offended.  I live in the world, I am not OF the world.  

And? This isn't about you. Or me. Or any one person. 

I'll say this one more time: The site is for ANYONE in mourning, not just people with spiritual/religious beliefs. The intent here is to be mindful and take EVERYONE into account. 

 

[KayC]

We are fortunate to have the spirituality thread within loss of spouse section. Don't push your luck or we won't.  This site was started (and paid ford) by the admin here and we need to abide by their wishes or we wont be here.  We haven't had anyone pushing this as much as recently, that is what called attention to it, we can't make non-believers and those of another faith uncomfortable.  And BTW, people exist with OTHER faiths and are free to express them in the spirituality thread, this isn't just about you or any one person here.

[LMR]

I have to say that I agree with Widower2. Have you noticed there have been less posts lately? I have come to this site at least once a day for almost three years, recently I have been finding it of less help because people are wandering off topic too much. I can ignore it but still I groan and leave. There has been little to relate to for a while. Disappointing. I don't know, but I don't believe this thread was started as a general chat about anything you like, Shawnt was taliking about home and missing his wife!!!

[widower2]

Again all, as I mentioned earlier, I have contacted the owners of the site to get some firm clarity one way or the other, as of course it's their call. Thanks for your patience!

PS I'm as guilty of it as anyone, but I'd ask let's stop further discussion on this topic from this thread.  If you want to discuss further, feel free to PM myself or Kay. Thanks!

[Kelly]

Hello all!

Elyse and I are jumping in here to this conversation. We have people from over a 100 countries who visit Grieving.com. Just think about this for a moment, 100 countries means multiple religions, languages and beliefs. The one thing that unites us all together is the grief. 

Religion is PERSONAL and it can cause TRIGGERS for people. Even people who are strong in their faith might be challenged in their beliefs during their grief process. This is why we have segmented the boards on Grieving.com in to types of loss, religion & beliefs and other categories. Then people can make a choice where they take their conversations. For discussions on religion and beliefs please go to that section at https://forums.grieving.com/forum/7-spiritualreligious-beliefs/.

The thread that is discussing religion in Loss Of A Partner has been moved to the Religious  & Belief Forum in the above link. If you want to continue this debate please go there. If you continue this debate here we will move it to that discussion thread.

We know there might be mentions of how their belief has helped them through their grief in personal posts, but DISCUSSIONS of religion should be in the Religion and Belief Forum.

Thank you!

Kelly & Elyse

[shawnt]

And I guessed thats, that.

[KayC]

We're sorry, Shawn, I hope you'll start another thread...this one just took a turn we couldn't get away from.  Not fair to you, I know.  But we value your input on this site.