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I Believe There Isn't a God...


Kelly

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Beyond Indigo Is Looking for Message Board Monitors

Interested in volunteering a few hours each week to monitor a message board and interact daily with the Beyond Indigo community? We're looking for monitors to share their experience, strength and hope. If you are interested, contact Julie at julie@beyondindigo.com for more information.

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mariaceleste,

What is a false Christian? It is my hope that we are to be tolerant of one another's cherished beliefs by trying to be understanding and forgiving, even when we feel that we have been hurt by another's personal opinion of what they believe in!! Only after we pass on to the next level of life will we see exactly what our life here did for us by how well we institiuted those precious universal principles of forgiveness, acceptance, understanding, compassion, love tolerance, generosity and peace to one and all, whether they were a believer or non-believer!! Our life becomes meaningful and rewarding not by what we believe in, but in what we do with it when it comes to loving our fellow man or woman regardless of beliefs, attitudes, desires, opinions, and whether or not one believes in GOD!! Your personal beliefs will be openly received and respected here, at least that is my desire!!

Always a friend,

Steve D.

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Hi all –

I’m sure you’ve noticed that the message boards seem a little different. We’ve streamlined the message boards. We’ve unified the forum and thread names and tried to make things less confusing. I hope that it has made things easier for you.

We are considering adding new threads to the topics and would love to hear what you would like to be added. You can write me at julie@beyondindigo.com to share your thoughts and suggestions. I would love to hear from you.

I am also still looking for message board monitors. If you are interested, please let me know!

Take care,

Julie

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hello anonymous1. heather here. i have been reading your posts all along. i also have been (slowly) looking into some of the sites and verses that you listed. i am interested to learn of your thoughts/beliefs. i had a cousin who was an atheist but i never had the chance to discuss things with him. now, he is passed on. i do find other people's beliefs interesting. i was wondering if you were brought up with these beliefs or with other beliefs?? what do you believe happens to a person when they die?? what i believe is different than what i was taught to believe. i think that at this time in our lives, we will not be able to have all the answers to all our questions........but i still have alot of questions. i will continue to look into the info that you posted, slowly but surely. thanks heather

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hi anonymous1. thanks for responding to me. i agree with you that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs about god/religions and the such...........anything for that matter. and i respect people's beliefs, or at least i try to. years ago, i worked in a hospital with a man who was very much into religion. however, he pushed it on his co workers and on visitors and on patients. people never even mentioned god or religion but he was right there in our faces all the time. it became obnoxous (sp). i know he was told by our boss about it but to this day he still is like that. that type of thing bothers me. if i have a question or want to decuss something....ok. but don't push things on me. he just did not accept that. now, because of that experience, i try so hard not to do that to people and i try to respect other's beliefs. i do have another question for you. in your beliefs, do you believe that love, honesty, sharing, caring, understanding, compassion, forgiveness, ect are all important in life.....day to day life. do you believe that stealing, cheating, lieing, abuse, selfishness, ect are all bad/negative things??? i am not trying to be mean in any way, these are honest questions. like i said, i never had the chance to ask my cousin.....i never thought about it like this either. i have noticed that as i get older my thoughts/views/opinions/ have changed from what i used to think. i guess that is all apart of life and growing. i just enrolled in a local community college and some of these topics may have something to do with my choice of study in the future. ok, i will post again later. thanks, heather

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mariaceleste

Dear Anonymous,

Hi, I really respect your honesty in your beliefs. You know why I say that? Because I know a lot of people, who are not honest about what they believe. I don\'t believe people care about anyone\'s belief, and should not be correcting anyone\'s belief. You can believe what you want, as long as no one goes around hurting anyone. I don\'t think it\'s right, if you, or me come to these discussion boards, and people try to correct how we feel, that\'s just plain wrong.

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mariaceleste

Dear Anonymous,

you sure were unfairly under attack, for your beliefs. I'm not sure if that is what the bible teaches, that if someone doesn't believe god, go attack. I don't think God does that. I believe the way to defend God is by following, obeying etc. what he says. The love your neighbour, your enemy. That's the only thing that bothers me, if someone is going to call themselves a Christian, they should back it up with their actions, Actions speak louder than words. That's why I say, I'd rather be an honest Atheist than a false Christian. You are so right, you don't need to be a Christian, to be a good honest person.

Anonymous, I know if I believed in God, I don't think I would need to come to these forums for comfort, seeking comfort from other people, because I know I have God in my life. You know what I mean? If God comforts you, why do you need the comfort of people? But then you would problaby get an answer like this, that God uses people to comfort you. I don't believe that. I'll talk to you soon.

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hi anonymous and mariaceleste. i read your posts and here are my thoughts and questions. i guess the questions i asked about what qualities you uphold was not thought thru very well. my dad does not follow any religion nor was he brought up to follow any religion, but he is a good man with all the "good qualities", so we can X out that question.

how do you find comfort in your grief process?? what seems to help you?? family and friends?? are you offended when someone says to you "i'll keep you in my prayers", not knowing that you do not follow a religion. how do you handle that???

mariaceleste, you wrote: if god comforts you, why do you need the comfort of other people. i do think that after talking about my feelings, i feel somewhat better. i don't know if i personally feel comforted, but i feel like i got it off my chest. talking about things and letting out your feelings/thoughts/and emotions is healthy. i'm not sure what i think about god and religions. i know what i was taught but i'm just out there wandering around trying to find the answers that please me the best. i do think it is a personall thing, whatever you are comfortable with.

i will be starting college classes this summer. i am persueing a masters in social work with an emphasis on berevement and gerontology and some religion mixed in there. as with any job/career, it is always best to be a "well rounded person"..........at least that is what the colleges say :)

i am taking "classes" to be a hospice volunteer, only 33hrs. interesting stuff. i'm enjoying the classes. i am also going to a grief supprot group that our local hospital offers. i enjoy that too. all of this is a learning experience for me. my children seem to have a great understanding/acceptance of death........much more than i had expected them to. they are 3yrs and almost 5ysr old. i enjoy reading books on the afterlife. i am a slow reader but i get it done. i also belong to a group that focuses on the paranormal. so, now that i wrote all this i am not sure where i was going with it :) well, i'm done for the night and off to bed. thanks for reading this. heather

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Hi Anonymous1. It's interesting that you say you get offended when someone says they'll keep you in their prayers. You say it offends you because they're assuming then that you're religious, also. Yes, there are alot of religious people out there, but often people will make remarks about keeping you in their prayers regardless if they're religious or not. Socially/culturally it just seems the right thing to say especially when it comes to the loss of a loved one. So you can't really assume that everyone who says they have you in their prayers...is religious, and I am sure, they do not assume that you are religious. It could be said out of sheer politeness. What is prayer really? It's an intimate mind/heart/soul connection between a person and what they perceive to be their god/force/higher power/etc. For the religious it literally means the difference between ending up in heaven or hell. For the spiritual it means keeping in touch with one's own higher-self. For the rest there are many different reasons for praying...or not. Instead of feeling offended the next time someone says they will keep you in their prayers...feel honored that someone cared enough about you to include you in their positive goodwill. Prayers are good thoughts and wishes...and we can all use them.

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Just for the record...I am the most non-religious person anyone will ever meet. However, I do believe in a higher force that we are all intricately a part of, whether we know it or not. My Mom had several near-death experiences before she died on November 15, 2004, all of which we discussed on many occasions. Just so you know, it does not matter to our Creator what we believe in. His only concern is that we love one another and live good lives. Religion is man-made and is not mandated by God or any other entity. We only have ourselves to blame for that, as we do for the evil in this world. Evil is human-inflicted and has nothing to do with the will of God. Evil is the absence of good...and sadly there is plenty of that in our world today.

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coltinsmom

anonymous 1

I have to disagree with you about the prayer thing. I am not religious in any way shape or form, yet I do what I consider praying to my son who passed and to others I love that are on the other side. I think Christianity was a construct that was designed to control the masses and that what many people consider fact are just religious fairy tales. To me prayers are communication and positive energy that can be sent from one person/entity to another. I believe it is all about love and love is energy. Just a way to send my positive support and love to another. So maybe it is just the definition of what prayer is that is the problem? What do you think?

Coltinsmom 4ever

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The faith it takes to believe there is not a God is awesome.

Such strong faith to believe there is not a God. Hope there is not a God to admonish his children for not obeying. Yet we live our human lives admonishing our own. Teaching our children, rewarding for excellence, rebuke for disobedience. How dare our Father in Heaven do the same to his children. On earth to prison the noncompliant yet how dare our Father in heaven due to same to children of Satan.

Faith the Bible is full of fairy tales from wondering minds. Literature to persuade the weak and meek yet God wants us to endure with patience and without resentment, stand strong and not be pushed around.

I never saw Abraham Lincoln, but if I read they tell me he was here http://www.historyplace.com/lincoln/index.html

I never saw John F Kennedy but they tell me he was here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jk35.html

I never saw King David of the Bible but they tell me he was here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jk35.html

I never saw Rachel of the Bible tomb, but they tell me she was here

http://www.rachelstomb.org/

Will our coming generations believe Muslims, in the name of God, steal our

peace with bombs, and planes in to buildings. How strong will they believe.

That history shows that in the name of Christianity took lives in the name of God. Were they really with God?

Have you gone out to eat and been mistreated? Yet you still continue to go out to eat. Have you been some place but was blantanly maltreated?

Yes let past, present and future history persuade you from Christ.

Have faith that there is no God.

The fairy tales we weave:

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Revelations

16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

How strong is the faith of the unbeliever, hoping and praying there is NO GOD!

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You know, once in awhile I check out these threads under this forum and am really confused as to what some people are saying and doing here. I'm not saying WHAT I believe or don't believe here so far, simply because there seems to be all this cross-over from the 2 different threads and it is very confusing as to which one you're actually IN!

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Swede1 - OH YA. I thought this thread was "I believe there isn't a God" yet most of what I read was pertaining to there "being a God". I started at the bottom of the thread and read up and was confused by the time I got to the top.

My thoughts on this subject is that we need to believe whatever makes us a good person. I think that there are lots of great things that come out of religion...but there are lots of bad things also. And who is to say "Christian" is better than Muslim or Buddah (sp) or whatever. Is Christian the oldest religion? I don't think so. Who wrote the bible? Who rewrote the bible...how many things were lost in translation? Or reworded in translation? How many times do we hear that God is the only Judge? How many Christians Judge us for not being "born again"? How many are judged by the color of the skin? Or sexual prefrence? I know many that don't believe and are the best people I know...I also know many that spew the scripture and are mean hearted.

Do I believe? Ya, kinda. It has become very shaky as I get older and start looking at how others believe and look at the different religions world wide.

These are just my thoughts, my opinion. I don't feel that others are bad for believing what they believe, I feel that if it makes you feel good, go for it. But I also think that everyone needs to take a very hard look at there actions and mind set and weather they are TRULY good people, I feel that is the most important.

Denise

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evrlastinggodstopper

There Is No God (And You Know It)

By Sam Harris

Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture, and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind not occuring precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of six billion human beings.

The same statistics also suggest that this girl's parents believe--at this very moment--that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good they believe this?

No.

The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy, it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.

It is worth noting that no one ever need identify himself as a non-atrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (eighty-seven percent of the population) who claim to "never doubt the existence of God" should be obliged to present evidence for his existence--and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of the innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: Most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus; no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate for a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible, and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.

Consider: the city of New Orleans was recently destroyed by hurricane Katrina. At least a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and over a million have been displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient, and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely he had heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: these poor people spent their lives in the company of an imaginary friend.

Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm "of biblical proportions" would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept. But it was inept only by the light of science. Advance warnings of Katrina's path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery. God told no one of his plans. Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of the Lord, they wouldn't have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces. And yet, a poll conducted by the Washington Post found that eighty percent of Katrina's survivors claim that the event only strngthened their faith in God.

As hurricane Katrina was devouring New Orleans, nearly a thousand Shiite Pilgrims were trampled to death on a bridge in Iraq. There can be no doubt that these Pilgrims believe mightily in the God of the Koran. Indeed, their lives were organized around the indisputable fact of his existence: their women walked veiled before him; their men regularly murdered one another over rival interpretations of his word. It would be remarkable if a single survivor of this tragedy lost his faith. More likely, the survivors imagine they were spared through God's grace.

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world's suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is--and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exits, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or He does not care to. God, therfore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God's goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If He exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation, he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both reasonable andthe least odious: the biblical God is fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical God is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world's suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love, it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be direcly attributed to religion--to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions, and religious diversions of scarce resources--is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/there-is-no-god-and-you-_b_8459.html

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evrlastinggodstopper

The essay I posted below was written by one of my favorite authors, Sam Harris. Harris completely shows that if there is a God that exists, he would definitely be evil and not someone who should be loved, worshipped, or followed and is completely unworthy of humans. Harris also logically demonstrates that the most reasonable conclusion is to live in reality and realize since there is absolutely no proof or evidence of any God or Gods, that he does not exist. That is the atheist position which is the only one that is intellectually honest. I felt so much comfort reading Harris's essay because it represents my thoughts and feelings on the "God" concept and exposes the totally irrational, illogical, unprovable, out-of-touch with truth and reality which all religious people, such as Christians, unfortunately, sadly cling to. Writings like Mr. Harris's are such an inspiration to me. Like him, I analyze things, and don't deny the obvious. Anyway, here are some of my favorite books, including from Mr. Harris, that successfully refutes religion, the bible, and the existence of God. These books are the absolute truth and I highly recommend each of them.

Atheism: The Case Against God

By George H. Smith

The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason

By Sam Harris

The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold

By Acharya S.

Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher To Atheist

By Dan Barker

Why I am not a Christian: And Other Essays on Religion and Related Subjects

By Bertrand Russel

Atheist Universe: Why God Didn't Have a Thing to do with it

By David Mills

The Born Again Skeptics Guide to the Bible

By Ruth Hurmence Green

The Book Your Church Doesn't want you to Read

By Tim C. Leedom

The Impossibility of God

By Michael Martin

God's Defenders: What they Believe and why they are Wrong

By S.T. Joshi

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evrlastinggodstopper

WE ARE ATHEISTS BECAUSE...

* There is no proof of the existence of god.

* There is no need of, or use for, a god.

* A good god would be useless if it were not powerful.

* A powerful god would not deserve worship if he were not good.

* There is no all-powerful good god; otherwise there would be no imperfection.

* If this is the best world god can make, the stories of Heaven must be lies.

* History shows that godism is accompanied by ignorance and superstition.

* There has never been such intolerance and persecution as godists have practiced.

* Godism had to be fought when humankind made its successive steps towards science, liberty, and reform.

* Godism was invented in the earliest days of mankind's ignorance. It is incredible that primitive humans guessed wrongly about everything else, but discovered the truth about the origin of life. Everything about which science has discovered the origin was claimed previously to have been the work of a god. Godism recedes when a new fact is discovered. No new discovery ever supports a theistic explanation of anything.

* Godism is consistent with crime, cruelty, envy, hatred, malice, and uncharitableness.

http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/because.html

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You are right!

God only exist when we have our own god.. example

my husband thinks hes god,(god made adam) he also thinks god made goddess(women)

but whos to tell wether god is real or not, who are we to judge..lol.

I think all mankind is God and all females are Goddess, it's just that these gods on earth now has created our world as a disater and becos of that our world is now gone even worser and what makes it worser when mothernature has had enough of all the wars and treeloggers and so on, these globalwarmings are happening so quick and god(man) has helped destroy our earth.. So who is really God!

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WOW~

I am by no means stupid or ignorant or superstitious...etc....but godstopper...WOW...I feel terrified at your comment- and Im not a religious person...but your post and the idea that people really are this way just shakes me to the core. My morning is wrecked- for the moment- for if I can still survive my (gift from God) sons passing...(a free will accident)...I can survive some ramblings of people who ...OMG...got to go, getting sick. This forum is revolting...sorry.

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Guest.

All are entitled to their opinion.... true enough.... so here's mine.

If all of us who do believe in God as God, Jesus Christ of Nazareth's sacrifice for our salvation and sins, ARE wrong? What do we have to lose for believing?

If All of you who do NOT believe in God in Heaven and a judgement day, where we are found accountable for the way we have lived our lives on this earth, ARE WRONG? Where is your soul headed? Who has the most to lose here? No laughing matter.

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evrlastinggodstopper

I have posted some articles that do an excellent job at representing my beliefs. Now, I'll use my own words expressing my own thoughts and feelings about my total rejection in a belief in a God. I believe in all likelihood that there is no God. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere to suggest that such a being exists. No Proof whatsoever. At the same time, I believe that even if there was a God, which is extremely unlikely, he definitely would be evil, cruel and not fit for praise or worship. There is death, disease, pain, sorrow, destruction and so many other horrible things that happen in this world. The most logical, reasonable, intelligent conclusion and mentally healthy attitude to take regarding all the pain and suffering that takes place is that there is no God. Whatever happens, happens. There is no God who either causes human suffering or sees it happening and does nothing to prevent or stop it. That's my approach and how I live my life. The only other reasonable conclusion, but not mentally healthy attitude regarding all the unfairness and suffering in the world would be an evil God exists. Then, if this god did exist, he would be responsible for either causing the suffering or not preventing it. But, since an evil God is highly unlikely (a good God even far more unlikely), then it is wise to live your life free of religious and God belief. Besides, to believe that a horrible God exists means that all the losses and pain and suffering that is taken place in my life would be solely blamed on him . I can't live with that. What I can live with is the fact that there is no God to blame for any of it because he does not exist. That is the best and most mentally healthy way to live my life. It's too bad that others don't do the same. I am an Agnostic Atheist and extremely proud of it.

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evrlastinggodstopper

Clittlelady,

I do not believe that such a Character as Jesus ever existed. If he did exist, Jesus was definitely insane. The whole salvation, sacrifice for sins story is the most absurd, ridiculous, false, story ever told. All of the God stories are just as absurd and illogical. There is no proof that a heaven exists. It is just another irrational, illogical belief just as God and Jesus. A judgement day is an obnoxious threat to brainwash and scare religious people to keep them believing these myths. I have no proof that there is such a thing as a soul and neither do you. On that note, a soul may not be heading anywhere. I care what happens in life. You have the most to lose by living yours on irrationality which are things that are totally illogical and can't be proven and are extemely unlikely. I choose reality and common sense.

P.S. You are on the wrong forum. This forum is for people who reject God and religious beliefs. Since I do not violate the rules and stick to this forum which was created for my beliefs, I suggest you do the same so we can avoid unnecessary arguments, animosity, and hostility.

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evrlastinggodstopper

Griffinsmom,

That description of what Atheists believe I got from the american atheists website. I happen to totally agree with it. People who are religious and believe in God were either brainwashed by their parents, their church, or society. It's true. Otherwise, they would correctly reject such beliefs. With such beliefs, they are, regrettably believing ignorant and superstituous nonsense. I am a very honest person and consistently express the truth. Most religious people treat me with hostility because they refuse to accept the truth and are offended by it. That's why I specifically post only on this forum because it is a safe place for me to post without any unpleasant confrontations. This forum would never be considered revolting to anyone who saw religious beliefs and belief in God for the lies that it is. So, I have no idea what you're doing here posting in the first place. With your gift from God comment, it is obvious that you are on the wrong forum. You should stick to the forums that agree with your belief system instead of coming to a forum that you have a problem with someone's beliefs that you disagree with. I respect the rules of this site. You need to do the same.

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evrlastinggodstopper

Griffinsmom,

You need to take your prejudice against atheists, elsewhere. This is a forum to post for those who do not believe there is a God. In other words, it is for atheists like me so I can express my thoughts and feelings in peace without someone like yourself coming here to obnoxiously attack. As I said before, you do not belong on this forum and you need to respect and follow the rules of this site.

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griffinsmom

Hey- Have at it. It dosent matter what I say or think....Are you here because you have had a recent loss, or to push Athiesm? This site is not for advertising Athiesm....we are people who have suffered tremendous personal loss, and are looking to make sense out of it all. I have a right to disagree with your statement(s), no matter what forum.....I do find the way you speak threatening, and what you are saying repulsive- and I have that right, too. My conversing with you has given me a negative experience and subjected me to hostility I do not need in my life. Wow Kid, You make a good Athiest. Maybe you need a more supportive environment. My wish is you never type my screen name in here again- I dont want my sons name at your fingertips- to be honest.

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evrlastinggodstopper

Griffinsmom,

The answer to your question is: A combination of both. I have had a very devastating loss in my life. Atheism is an important part of how I can deal with it in a mentally healthy way. I am not pushing or advertising atheism to anybody. I am just freely expressing my beliefs on the correct forum that was created for my specific beliefs. I am well aware of this site being about loss. Atheism is how I cope and make sense of it all. The reason why there are separate non-belief and belief forums is to communicate with others who have like-minded beliefs to avoid conflict, hostility, confrontations, and adding additional pain to others. To come here and verbally attack me because you don't like my personal beliefs is what is really repulsive, threatenning and undeserved. By the rules of this site, you don't have that right. I came to this particular forum to be free from receiving hostility from people like you. And I certainly do not need to converse with you, either. But then again, it wasn't me who was posting on the wrong forum. You did that. And it wasn't me who went after an individual and ridiculed them. Again, you did that. Your kid referral to me is being rather rude and disrepectful. I am an adult. I doubt very much you are since you certainly don't behave like one. I am a good person and proud of my atheism. There is no doubt in my mind that my beliefs are correct. This is supposed to be a supportive environment for me because this forum is for those who reject beliefs in any God. If some atheists successfully find this forum then I will be more than happy to converse with them as they will provide the comfort and support this forum was created for in the first place. I wish you would never post on this forum ever again. Atheists who have lost loved ones do not need to be confronted with such an obnoxious, disrepectful, person like you. To be honest, I came to this forum so that I wouldn't have the displeasure of dealing with people like you. You should remove your son's name because you're embarassing his memory by how you hostily treat others who you disagree with.

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Dear Griffin's mom, could you somehow get me your e-mail address or phone number? I'm a Christian but, oops, went on the wrong thread. Take Care okay, love, Renee

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griffinsmom

How incredibly offensive. My son is very proud of me. WOW....You have just strengthened my faith- by your example of humanism. Faith- That would be believing in something you can't see or explain. Its a free website / forum- I have simply expressed my opinion on what I have read. I do not know you- maybe some professional help with all the anger? There are also herbal and pharmaceutical products that can help. Sorry for your loss, sorry you feel so incredibly attacked. Actually, it is possible people treat you with hostility because you are hostile in your communications. Take a look at yourself and you can look at others differently- put your hand in the hand.....la la la la...old school music. Just came into my head- thought Id share.

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evrlastinggodstopper

Griffinsmom,

Since you had offended me with your comments, I simply did not tolerate it and responded appropriately under the circumstances. And every time some religious person takes the attitude towards me that you have it only strengthens even more my non-faith and non-belief. You did get the definition right regarding the word faith. For me to believe something, I must have proof. I must know it beyond a reasonable doubt. There isn't anything a religious person could ever say to me that would convince me they are telling the truth. Faith is blind. Unfortunately, the majority goes along with it. I won't. Many have tried to proselytize me and I have rejected them every time. Others have insulted me and made threats towards me and it still has not shaken my beliefs against God religion and everything associate with it. So, neither you or anyone else can convince me of anything as to what you believe. Sure, its a free website. However, I have far more respect for it and its rules then you do. I have read the "I believe there is a God" forum. I 100% disagree with everything those people say there. I think their beliefs are nothing but garbage and lies. Have I posted there? No. Why not? First, it would only cause hostility, unpleasant confrontations, and cause me more sadness which I don't need. Second, that forum is the total opposite of what my beliefs are so I know I shouldn't be poting there anyway. I have this forum which represents my beliefs and I just stay here to post it. That is the respect that I show to this site. You, on the other hand, have shown no respect for this site and obviously don't care about anyone but yourself. because if you did, you wouldn't be posting on this forum, deliberately starting an argument with me and antagonizing me. Since you don't know me or my situation, you are certainly not qualified to give me any advice. I do not appreciate your suggestion. My anger towards you is completely justified. I was just posting my beliefs and you come here with your nasty comments directed at me. I won't take that from anyone nor should I. The people who treat me with hostility are those who don't like the beliefs I express. They come at me with hostility like you did. After that, I respond accordingly. I came to this forum to hopefully talk to atheists, agnostics, humanists, that share like-minded beliefs where there would be no potential for hostility. You, unfortunately have decided to ruin that by posting on the wrong forum. To be so selfish and thoughtless, you should be ashamed of yourself. Now, hopefully, maybe you'll understand the problems you've caused and decide to do the correct thing and no longer post to me or on this forum anymore. I can only hope.

P.S. As you could see below, a person who uses the username Aprilsmom, who is a Christian, realized that she was posting on the wrong forum and stopped. You should do the right thing and follow her lead.

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griffinsmom

Good Morning-

Im thinking there was a deleted post, for as I re read- the voluminous exhaustive verbiage- I do not see the word "stupid"....or find anything offensive enough for me to comment. I dont typically use the word "stupid". Therefore, I must conclude that a post has been deleted. Maybe I was hallucinating.

Many assumptions have been made throughout your posts.

1- you call me a religious person.(amongst many other things)

Good luck on your journey. The Grief does things to people.

I believe Aprilsmom was being facetious.

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I agree with you, griffinsmom.

Aprilsmom was being facetious.

facetious---

1.joking or jesting often inappropriately.

2.meant to be humorous or funny:not serious.

Don't you get it,elgs????

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evrlastinggodstopper

Griffinsmom,

You are mistaken. No post of mine or any portion of it was been deleted. Maybe you were trying to find something to use against me in order to cause more trouble for me. Who knows. Since you used a "gift from God" term in one of your posts, anyone would conclude that you are somewhat religious and a God believer. From that, it would not be a stretch to assume you are religious. Even if you weren't, no non-religious person who totally rejects a belief in a God (which is what this forum was created for) would have any problem with anything I have posted. So, you are clearly on the wrong forum, violating and disrespecting this site's rules. My grief journey would help a great deal if I had other atheists, agnostics, who shared my like-minded beliefs. That would give me some comfort to talk to others who are rational, logical, and intelligent enough to see religion and God beliefs that others are brainwashed to believe as nothing but a fraud. You are obviously not such a person. By the way, Aprismom never posted on this forum before. Since she stopped herself in her post, there is no way to assume that she was being facetious. It was clearly an honest mistake on her part of posting on the wrong forum which she understood and admitted to.

Mattsdad,

It is not funny to delare yourself a christian on a forum created for atheists. She has the believers forum to post on. If it was done as a joke it was in extremely poor taste. I believe this was not the case. It was just an honest mistake and she did not intentionally behave that way to deliberately violate the rules. Don't you get it, Mattsdad?

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griffinsmom

You know, it's not your beliefs...it's your style.

BTW...who is Anonymous1? I go back in these posts and there is much reference to A1, but I don't see all these posts and reference information people are referring to.

Also- I must have missed Matts Dad referring to himself as a Christian in the post- or anywhere before it....

November 11,2005 - February 28,2006 is quite a time spread in posts.

While this is not impossible.....but???? I do not see any details of the struggle with your loss or how your beliefs help you- all I have seen is reference material, and some very personal attacks.

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Okay, I have a confession to make (seems I have to do a lot of THAT lately). I have read this particular thread for months. Most of all, because I am a reader at heart. I came to BI because, like most, I've suffered an enormous loss and have difficulty coping and communicating with the rest of my family who are also suffering immensely. I really never understood why have this particular thread on beliefs/religions at all because that comes out on all the other threads. There are other places on the net regarding those issues that do not relate with grieving and maybe they would be best kept there. Yes, I am a Christian, but that doesn't mean I don't question God or His plan (i.e. allowing April to leave us at such a young age). He did, afterall, give us a brain to do just that. I tend to believe that everyone has the right to choose (Eve didn't have to eat the apple) and won't infringe on anyone's right to do so. I do, on occasion,try to sway people into thinking my way; only because I tend to LIKE people and want them to be happy/happier, sheesh...I don't know. I can guarantee you I won't come back to this site/thread again because I don't have the energy to do much but miss my daughter. Peace to all here. Thanks Mattsdad and Randi - you know me too well:) - see you on "loss of a child". Renee

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As a member of the administrative staff here at Beyond Indigo, I would like to explain the purpose of this particular discussion/thread for anyone who might wonder and/or anyone who has misunderstood its purpose.

Everything about this site is done with the hope that it can help those who are grieving the loss of a loved one get through that loss. For the vast majority of people who do embrace a spiritual belief, that belief system gets them through much of the heartbreak we face while grieving. For those who are agnostics or atheists, this isn't an option, so we have placed this thread here to help those people deal with their loss. It is NOT a place to try to convert nonbelievers, it is not a place to belittle the beliefs of others, nor is it a place for spiritual/religious debate and/or confrontation. A little tolerance is definitely in order here.

In reading the posts of late, I cannot find where you have talked about the specifics of your loss, Evrlastinggodstopper. Since that *is* the purpose of these and all other discussion boards here at Beyond Indigo, can you please share that with us?

I hope future posts will be in the spirit of support of others who are grieving the loss of a beloved friend or family member and not personal confrontations as there have been. This isn't the place for that.

DeeAnn

Administrative Staff - Beyond Indigo

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DeeAnn,

Thank you for your post. My previous posts were not meant to be mean-spirited. While I may have been out of line with the original purpose of expressing a counter belief(i.e. I believe there isn't a God) I came to express my support for griffinsmom. My intent was to let griffinsmom know that she was not alone...

We of faith that have lost a child are a close-knit group who abhor the thought that we are wrong in trusting that our children are still with us in spirit.

With the sad state of our emotional roller coaster we sometimes lash out at the non-believers. It is so much easier to NOT believe than to make that leap of faith...

So in the future I will make it a point to avoid this particular thread---and to stick with the more appropriate forums that you have afforded us.

Life is way too precious than to waste it on people that drag us down----rather than lift us up....

Repsectfully,

Jeff(mattsdad)....

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griffinsmom

Thanks for the support.... truthfully, I'm glad to see I have any fight left in me at all. Something was said regarding stupid, superstitious and ignorant- and it just got to me. I'm sure Griffin is laughing at me, glad to see me acting like my old self-. I am being a bit antagonistic..."I'll Admit"...( a Griffin phrase)

As for Mr. Godstopper..."Tell yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to make yourself feel good"...(another one of my sons great argument enders)

WOW Kid- I believe Ill get back to my life now- thanks for the show.

My Bad, Dee.

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I love it, griffinsmom! God works in mysterious ways. You go girl! :) :)

DeeAnn

p.s. Please know that my previous post was not directed at any individual...just trying to clarify.

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Just to put in my two cents. DeAnn is right when she says this is a forum about a loss. We are here to discuss the loss of loved ones. It is not a forum on informing people about agnostics or atheists. Articles defending this decision are not the purpose. We would like to hear about the loss of the loved one and see if there is anyone who can help you deal with the loss. Just my thoughts.

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evrlastinggodstopper

DeeAnn,

I commend you for creating specifically "I believe there isn't a God" forum. There are many atheists, agnostics, and other non-believers who lose love ones, too. They need a place where they can go to share their thoughts with people who have like-minded beliefs. It is of no comfort to us when a religious person makes a God comment or of a religious nature. It only upsets us and provides us with more pain. When discussing loss, religious believers are the very last individuals I would ever want to discuss it with. You see, I have tried other support group sites. When I have explained my beliefs along with my losses, the religious people have tried to convert me, proselytize me, convince me of things, argue with me, and when they found out they could not succeed, they would then insult me. That's why this forum is very much needed for people like me. It's purpose is to provide a safe haven so we can feel free to talk without having to encounter believers with the antagonistic behaviors I just described. This is what should be the case as non-believers express themselves. Unfortunately, there have been believers who have come on this forum where they clearly shouldn't be. These people have a believers forum where they can share their like-minded beliefs. Why do they feel it's necessary to come on this forum and act in a way where it ruins things for someone like me? Do they just not respect the rules or are they deliberately looking for an unpleasant confrontation? It looks like either of those things must be true. Let's look at some examples: Griffinsmom didn't like some of things that I said in a previous post. There's only one one problem with that. I was not speaking to her directly and there was no need for her to jump in since it was not specifically addressing her. Here is a terrible admission of what Griffinsmom tried to do: She admitted being a little antagonistic (Her own words). In other words, she provoked a confrontation with me. I post on this forum to specifically avoid that behavior because I've received too much of it in the past from believers on other sites. Here is another admission form AprilsMom: She is a Christian. Knowing this, she should know that this isn't the forum for her. Also she admits that she likes to sway people to her way of thinking. In other words, she tries to convert and proselytize others. Again, that is the last behavior that a non-believer like myself wants to encounter and this forum should be free of that as well. The final example is of MattsDad: He admits that believers like to lash out at non-believers. In other words, he decided to come on a forum where others have totally different beliefs and ridicule them. Again, a non-believer like myself came to this particular forum to get away from believers who behave in this manner. So, there you have it. Each of those individuals' closed their comments by stating that they will avoid this particular forum in the future and post on other forums that are more appropriate for their needs. They should have realized this in the first place. I hope they are being honest about that. If they are, there will be no unpleasant confrontations in the future and I will be able to post as a non-believer on a forum specifically for my beliefs without worrying about believers intrusions and upsetting comments. Hopefully, other atheists, agnostics, and non-believers who have lost loved ones will eventually find this forum so we can talk about it in peace.

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elgs,

I never said believers "like" to lash out at non-believers...

Having said that---get your facts straight before you attribute them to a poster....

And by the way... May I respectfully ask what loss you have experienced in the past.

I am truly sorry if you have lost a family member or close friend.

My prayers and thoughts go out to you. Your loss can mean nothing less than a loss of any other person on BI....

Jeff

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Gonedog--

Go to loss of a pet. There you may find some help.

Losing a dog can be very painful. May you find the support on that forum.

Jeff

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ELGS- As far as my knowing that "she should know this isn't the forum for her..." -- This whole website was created for people that have lost someone and are grieving (we're still wondering how you fit here?). If you read all the threads (your right to do so) you will find that it is normal for grieving people to question the existence of God. I really wanted to see how a non-believer copes with death so that I could find help for myself (AGAIN, what the website was created to do....). As far as trying to "convert" anyone; what was that whole book you first wrote if not a method of trying to "sway" people to YOUR way of thinking? Did I come on and say how offensive that may have been to me? No, I didn't and you never will know what I think about it because you don't listen very well. How old are you anyway? Let me ask again for all of us: "Have you lost someone"? If you haven't, then YOU are on the wrong site, not us! While I'm chatting, and since America was founded on the freedom of speech and I'm done listening to you psycho analyze all of us parents: I think YOU JUST CAME TO THIS SITE TO DRAW PEOPLE LIKE US INTO A DEBATE AND TO INFLATE YOUR EGO. Now, whether that's true or not, and since no one here really cares if it is or isn't.....either way, I hope you have a peaceful day and are comforted by whatever means you believe in. Take Care, Renee

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evrlastinggodstopper

Mattsdad,

Okay, you didn't specifically use the word "like". However, you did say that you "sometimes" lash out at non-believers. My point was that since this forum is called "I believe there isn't a God", no non-believer should be subjected to that behavior here and is what I personally wanted to get away from. To answer your question, I had an absolutely devastating loss in my life. But, it is those of a like-minded, non-belief that would give me satisfaction and some comfort to discuss it with. I'm hoping that some non-believers find this forum where I can feel comfortable in entering into that dialogue.

AprisMom,

Your assumptions about me are very much mistaken. First, yes this site is about losing someone. But, these forums are broken up into categories in order to accomadate an individual's specific needs. I have never been a religious person and I have always dedicated myself to completely reject religion. I have always been a combibation of atheist and agnostic. From all the losses I have had, it just strengthened my rejection of religion and God belief. I'm proud of that. Also my non-belief is extremely helpful to me in regards to my outlook on life. Since you post on the believers forum and have stated agreement in their views, there really isn't anything gained or constructive for you to listen to someone who has a totally different perspective. As far as some of my previous posts you questioned, I listed many of my favorite atheist books which I agree with any helps me. Also, I posted an essay called "The Atheist Manifesto." Sam Harris is one of my favorite non-believer writers and in the essay he expresses what I believe so very well. Sometimes those writers find the words to express what I believe better than I can which is why I post them. And the reason is not to try to convert anyone. It is just representing what my views are in regards to the God concept, religion, and the Bible. No, you didn't come on here and tell me how offensive you thought it was. That's true. However, you complained on the believers forum to a person named Mark and said how much it sickenned you. And Mark agreed and bashed those beliefs of mine. While I did not appreciate you and Mark on the believers forum negatively discussing my postings on this forum, I did not respond. I kept all my postings on this forum and ignored what was being said on the other beliefs forum. I did lose someone who was everything to me. As far as my age and my story of personal loss, with your God beliefs, I do not feel comfortable giving you that information. I came to the "I believe There Isn't a God" forum to exclusively discuss that with non-believers and Atheists. That is my purpose for posting here. I have not psycho-analyzed anyone. There are those who suddenly decided to confront me here with some attacks on my beliefs. I merely defended myself. I have no ego and your accusation of me looking to draw others into a debate is false. If that was my goal, I would have posted on the "I believe there is a God" forum. But, I didn't. I posted on a forum which described my beliefs expecting only like-minded people to post here so there would be no unpleasant, confrontational debate. Thank you for your closing sentiments. Everyone should be able to decide for themselves what feels right in order to help them and is in their best interest. In my case, it is definitely being a combination of Agnostic Atheism.

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griffinsmom

"From all the losses I have had, it just strengthened by rejection of religion and God belief. I'm proud of that. Also my non-belief is extremely helpful to me in regards to my outlook on life. "

I'd like to know your losses, and I'd like to know how your non-belief is extremely helpful to you in your outlook on life, as well as handling your devastating losses.

All our losses are extremely devastating, and we are all searching for answers. Maybe if you explain yourself, and not use the words stupid and superstitious-etc. regarding "believers", this could actually be a learning situation for all. All the boards are for everyone, and you can comment if you want. The moderators can always delete a post if it is horribly inappropriate.

Hey, maybe I can learn something that can help me! After loosing children, I'm sure most of us have questioned God a time or two. I have had an absolutely devastating loss (many) in my life, too- but none so devastating as the loss of my son. My questions and curiosity is what brought me to even look at this forum- which I have every right to do. But, I dont like to be called stupid.

"It has been said that those who understand something thoroughly will make the explanation of complex subjects simple, and of course the reverse is also very true."----George Anderson

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Dear Elgs, thank you for trying to explain to me when I know you don't have to do that. I think if everyone of us got in a room together, that no matter what we believe in, there would still be lots of diversity and differences of opinion. Sorry if you thought Mark and I were bashing you; wasn't really intended but it must have come out that way and we don't want to be looked at like "those" type of believers.....we know we are not judges. I will close on this note and then stay off the board (probably:))- My condolenses for your loss of a loved one, I know it hurts like there is no tomorrow and I know that Love is Stronger than death........it just has to be! Renee

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Evrs,

I hope that you have been able to recognize and appreciate the fact that several people here are concerned about the losses you have experienced in life, and they have shared their own losses with you. On Feb. 22, 1998, Eddie, my husband of 21 years, died in my arms after a 10-month battle with cancer.

These forums are *not* a place for you or anyone else to attempt to further one's own agenda as you have taken the opportunity to do on numerous occasions. You apparently have a gross misunderstanding about the purpose of this site and all of its message boards. You have made your personal beliefs abundantly clear to all. Your next post will need to be explaining your loss(es) and not defending your beliefs, ridiculing another for theirs, and certainly not telling anyone they don't have a right to post here.

DeeAnn

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