Something i was asked to consider

[Silvergirl61]

This may be too "out there" for some people. It may even go against things you believe, but i honestly do not post this to offend anyone. It's just something that came up in a discussion with a friend who also happens to be a shaman, and therefore has some different outlooks on things .

In his world view..there are two worlds..the one we see and the spirit world..which he says can be seen, by at least some if not all. He can see me struggling with this loss, and asked permission to talk to me about these things, to see if in some way he could help me, and he also gave me permission to pass some of it along, if it would help any of you. I can only tell the story from my personal perspective, and if there is anything in this that offends you- understand that i do not expect you to agree with me, to accept my views, to change your own beliefs, or anything like that. I am just offering these ideas..and letting you decide their value for yourself.

I was asked to consider for a moment..that the spirit realm was not as different as my notions of it may have been before. That once we pass on from here..there is another existence..but it doesn't automatically come with complete understanding of mysteries, and complete and utter power to do anything we want to do..and that it includes limits and rules..just like this one does. That in that realm, it is possible to learn to contact those in this one..but that it takes time..and both parts of the equation have to learn to communicate in a new way. There is a barrier in place between that world and this..to protect the boundaries of the worlds, because in order for one to progress from world to world..there is an amount of effort and learning that must be made to earn the rewards involved, and to be safe from the perils that exist. This is a very basic description of it, but should do for now.

He asked me to try and see Dennis, and see what has been happening for him, since August of 2012..if his world view is the correct one. He wanted me to imagine for awhile..that from that side..he can see and hear me, as I try to reach him- but being new to that place, has not had the time to learn the skills needed to respond, and has also been wrapped up in trying to reach me in ways that will not work..or will only work in a limited manner..as he is trying to learn by trial and error, without instruction. He asked me to think about the Dennis I knew here, in this realm, and this time, as I re-live that night..to try and see it all through his eyes..instead of my own..with his feelings and his experiences...instead of my own, and to try and describe what I could see as it was happening, and how it feels now..to realize that I am on the other side of the barrier..and cannot reach the person I love more than anything else..to reassure, to comfort, or to provide help and assistance..when it was what I had always done..and swore I would always be there to do. To describe his feelings..and to try to talk to me..here..with the words he is trying to so desperately say...but that cannot pass from there to here- because at this point..it's as though he is trapped behind a thick wall of one way glass- and cannot find a way through it yet- but that he continues to try, and continues to work, and continues to love...all the while knowing- there is no way back for him..and that the only way for us to be together - is the very last thing he wants me to experience, having already done it himself.

He told me that I have placed barriers in my mind, as has he; those prevent us from communicating with each other, and also prevent us from seeking the assistance of others who can walk between the worlds..and that when we are ready, if ever...to let those limits and barriers go we will both be free of the limits we have placed on ourselves. Or that we can give up and allow the barriers to remain..and move on into a new existence in the realms we are in..without each other, to maybe find each other later..when we both are in the same world again- or not, as there are choices to be made there as well as here.

I asked him, since he was shaman..if he could speak to both of us, or if he could see both of us- if he could help us communicate, or if he was allowed to do things like that.

He asked me, if he told me he could see him, and hear him and pass messages, if I truly in my heart would believe his words..or if I would doubt and then think he was simply trying to make his friend feel better and stop hurting; or that he had a personal interest in making profit from passing messages from ghosts.., and thereby lose faith in all he told me, and hurt our friendship. He also said he didn't feel that he would be comfortable placing himself in between the two of us as a conduit, anyway, as there are dangers involved in that as well. He told me I have all the answers I need..and that I am on my own path in this world..to learn or not, ..to try and find my way forward...because I can't walk backward into the past, and make what was real then , real now.

Somewhere in all of that..is some kind of truth, whether i can accept it, or not.

[widower2]

A very interesting post, SG. I wish you luck on your journey

[Silvergirl61]

While thinking about all of this, it also crossed my mind..that i hope he isn't spending all his time..pressed up against some barrier, trying to reach out to a life that's gone, feeling loss and sorrow all the time. Maybe this is the message my friend was trying to get me to hear for myself....that sometimes you just have to look at what is, to see what could be.

[widower2]

I can't say of course SG but I seriously doubt it - it just doesn't make sense or ring true to me, esp if you believe in God. Why would he be that cruel? If anything, I suspect it's more like he's looking at you from "wherever" and sad that you're apart, as you are, but looking forward to a day when you're together again, hoping that until then you can get as much out of this life as you can.

[Silvergirl61]

I think maybe what he was trying to convey to me in a gentle way, is that he thinks i spend too much time missing my life with Dennis, instead of enjoying my life as it could be, if i'd put some effort into it, by pointing out that as i wouldn't want him to be doing that..neither would he want it for me- from this side of the "glass".

[Jesse David & Taylor Mom]

Silvergirl, I happened to notice your post...

I usually post in the Loss of an Adult Child section...I have lost two children, my adult son, Jesse, died October of 2012...

You may be interested Raymond Moody's books...he is a researcher that dealt alot with these types of topics..

I am sorry for the loss of your husband...it is a very hard journey...

Have a peaceful day,

Jesse David's Mom

(your topic showed on the site's home page...)

[obakesan]

Hi silverGirl

I tend to agree that there is something. As someone with a lot of science and technical training I don't see that science or knowledge closes the door on this. Perhaps its meaningless to others but I wrote this blog post while pondering this

http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2013/06/atheism-does-not-mean-there-is-no.html

Basically I think the complexity of the creation and a creator exceeds what we can grasp. But that doesn't mean I think that its not existent.

I feel that Anita has not ceased, but that part of her remains.

[Silvergirl61]

Dennis was a great fan of Einstein, and in some of our discussions about the afterlife..those scientific explanations and mathematical formulae went way over my head. But kindly , he could see the lost expression , back up and explain things until i could get a basic grasp of what he was showing me. Through those discussions he gave me one thing to remember..science has not been able to prove the existence of god..yet. He was a great believer in science..and had been fortunate enough to speak with so many wonderful and creative scientific minds, who took the time to help shape and guide his "research". He told me that as far as he could tell Einstein had never been wrong ..and mentioned several other great minds that he'd spoken with, and told me that he was satisfied that there is a soul, and that it does go on. That I should always remember that, if nothing else helped.

[widower2]

Through those discussions he gave me one thing to remember..science has not been able to prove the existence of god..yet.

It's not simply "yet." It's never. As in it won't happen, because it can't. Science BY DEFINITION never will or can prove (or disprove) the existence of God.

To hopefully explain it better, her are a few of the definitions of "science" I found on the net - I think most are similar:

a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws

a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe

God, at least as most people believe or understand the concept of God, is well beyond what science can prove, as God is not simply some "natural phenomena" which can be proven or evidence (in the strictly scientific sense) given, no matter how sophisticated one's methods or technology may be. It's kind of like trying to prove the existence of sound waves with a yardstick. This is why I don't even waste my time trying to talk to people who throw out that ridiculously childish "prove God exists" (typically it's a rather pompous/arrogant atheist in my experience) The idea of scientific proof of God is, again by definition, ridiculous. That doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

[obakesan]

I agree with widower 2

It so not what science is for to answer questions about god. Science is a tool to explore things systematically.

Like Dennis I too have met and know some great minds, they seem to have more faith in their being a god than me. One is a maths specialist, his view is that maths is evidence of a creator, that our minds can grasp maths is part of God's gift to us to see him.

I view God as being more complex than most religions teach, but that is probably because no human can comprehend God.

[obakesan]

Silvergirl I was watching the crow the other night and wrote this

http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2013/10/real-life-vs-romantic-fiction.html

Perhaps its too early for you to think that way yet, but it at least shows where I have come to.

My personal log of my grief is here

http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/search/label/grief

It is unfortunately ordered most recent first, so you start where I am, not where I started. If nothing else it may help with some of the feelings of isolation.

I hope so

There are no ads on my blog.

[Silvergirl61]

His thoughts on the existence of god or gods were a bit different than mine..he said it wasn't that he didn't believe , but that his mind, being human, could never grasp the concept to the point he could ever offer an explanation that would be able to satisfy someone else of the truth he could feel.. Part of the charm he had was being able to listen to others and respect their thoughts even when he didn't agree totally with what they were telling him. In his view..the exact blueprint of your belief was far less important than the fact that you believed..and in that I agree. he had some theories that he said he would only be able to prove by dying..and that one day, he would have the answer to those questions, and find out for sure, or not, as the case might be. I hope that somewhere, he's found those answers, and that he's calmly watching me still struggle to find my answers and whispering.. "stop worrying...it will all be fine"....because that would be the best thing I can hope for at this point. I wish i thought there was a real way to reach across those distances for me..but I simply cannot make that leap of faith yet. I just don't think it works that way..or no-one would have any questions.

Thanks for sharing the blog post. It is strangely like that..looking for the bits and pieces,and trying to put it all together. I don't know some days, if i have made any progress or not on this journey, but i guess i just have to keep trekking along until i get to the next stopping place. It's the only choice i have.

[obakesan]

Hi

I hope that somewhere, he's found those answers, and that he's calmly watching me still struggle to find my answers and whispering.. "stop worrying...it will all be fine"....because that would be the best thing I can hope for at this point.

something tells me that this is pretty much just how it is.

I wish i thought there was a real way to reach across those distances for me.

I don't think that we know how to do that. In many ways I don't think that its easy for them to do that either. If you don't mind me telling you a slightly long story I'll try to explain.

Back when I was still in Australia (before I came back to Finland this time) I wrote a blog post including a song which was a song I liked that sumarised how I felt.

http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2013/04/its-not-warm-when-shes-away.html

Anyway, the other day I was putting some silicon onto the fingertips of my gloves (so that the velcro of my jacket doesn't snag on the fingers all the time, fraying the gloves). I was smart enough to know that the gloves can't be taken off till after the finger tips set, so I was prepared. I walked outside and was going to just hang around for some hour or so till the silicon set.

Well I needed to make sure my fingers didn't touch my jacket / pants / face / clothes ... and so I had to keep my hands by my side.

It was about then that I realised that it was cold 3C / 35F .. so I thought I'd walk around to keep warmer. While I was walking around I was feeling my fingers getting colder, so I walked into town and the local shopping center. It was warmer in there and sort of feeling stupid I thought I'd try to find a place to sit down and not look stupid with my arms out at my sides.

I found a place to sit in a walkway where there were some chairs and noone else around. I was thinking how Anita was probably laughing at me for the whole thing (as repairing / modifying / making stuff is something I do).

So there I am sitting like a dork with my arms out when a Finnish cover version of its not warm when she's away comes over the speakers in the center.

I thought immediately "what are the chances that an old song like that would be playing right when I was sitting there and thinking of her"

I cried for a bit and realised that I couldn't just wipe my eyes (cos the gloves were still wet) and I didn't want to go outside yet (because it was still cold).

Personally I just can't see that any other way than as a message. Just like the images that I've seen in her artwork and that day out in the field after the funeral (http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2012/12/i-just-dont-know.html).

So the message seems to be clear to me ... perhaps I'm just wanting to see it, but there are too many patterns to dismiss it.

I don't know some days, if i have made any progress or not on this journey, but i guess i just have to keep trekking along until i get to the next stopping place. It's the only choice i have.

I always feel like that. Just when I feel like I'm grasping things I fall back into despair.

All I can say is that for me the depth of the pits has become less and the duration shorter.

Just keep climbing, even if there are falls.