Loss of an Adult Child

[Shel]

Hello Carol I too always think that Blake is cold under that snow he needs me to put a blanket over him and keep him warm wrap him in my arms I can’t stop thinking this way it’s cold in Pennsylvania there’s a lot of snow and he needs his mom

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Carol, such a lovely photo of Mason - I can imagine exactly how he would be enjoying himself out there in the snow.

He looks like such a strong lad sat up there having fun.  He really didn’t have enough time here - he was so young.
We are all wistful about what should have been aren’t we.    I find myself just shaking my head at the pointless loss of our wonderful kids.

Mason’s girlfriend needs to sort herself out and show some respect to you.  How dare she add to your misery - you are the kindest of people and you do not deserve that.   I know she has an issue about Mason’s truck but she is out of order.  Don’t let her trouble you.

How old is Magnolia now?  She will be a huge source of joy to you all.  I’d love a little one around but probably from 10 months old or so - baby babies area bit too scary for me.

My daughter has got the invitations for us to go to visit the queen at Buckingham palace in May.  I need to diet and buy something suitable to wear - neither of which will be easy.  Roz

 

 

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Dear Shel,   We all manage to carry guilt around with us - even when we have absolutely nothing to be guilty about we will find something.     Minor things can take up a hugely troubling place in our heads when we are searching for reasons and answers.     We can overthink things so easily .

Go easy on yourself, Shel -   Roz

[Shel]

Thank you Roz! I will listen to your words They mean a lot! Shel

[Changed]

You know ,Shel , I have even found myself thinking about anything that ever happened to David from being a baby and beating myself up about it.  Things I hadn’t thought about for years now haunt me  - things like when he was 11 cycling to school and came off the bike and got concussion.  It was before mobile phones and I was out shopping - by the time I got home and got the call he’d already been taken to hospital .  He was in there for a couple of days but was ok - my husband was on business in America so I felt even more responsible.     It isn’t right but I thought and still think that I should have been there for him - by his side in the ambulance and speaking with the doctor from the start .     I wasn’t a neglectful mother , I was dedicated and full of love , but that is what makes it so hard when something goes wrong - as it always can. Roz

 

[Judith fay]

On 1/2/2005 at 11:36 PM, heartbrokendad said:

Dear EllenB,

As the father of two children who have both died way to soon, I can sympathize with you, Carrie died on 11/3/02, and Matthew on 7/16/03. I also have ason in the Air Force, who was just told to expect to go to Iraq soon.

If you want to talk, my email is swalton@mah.harvard.edu.

Stu

Carrie and Matthews dad

 

[Mason’s Mom]

Roz, when you write about David and how he was adventurous it reminds me of Mason he loved the outdoors. As a young boy he was on his bike every minute possible. Always looking for a way to go faster or a new trail to explore. 21 years was certainly not enough time. Today I have been thinking about him so much.  I remember a school trip to our state capital,  he sat by ne the 3 hour ride there and back when he was a sixth grader. The other students that had parents as chaperones sat by their friends. I remember at the time how pleased I was with him. He had so many friends but chose to stay at my side. Oh how I miss him.

Magnolia will be six months old on Sunday,  she is learning so much and has all of 7s wrapped around her little finger. She does bring light into the dark.

I am so excited for you and your trip to Buckingham Palace,  I think that is every little girl's dream. You will have to tell us all about the experience. 

Carol

[Shel]

Roz your trip to Buckingham Palace is so exciting how wonderful for you!

Carol when I listen to your words about Mason and how he sat with you on his bus ride to Washington DC I pictured all of this and I started to smile what a warm feeling thinking of those memories that must be for you!  These memories have to sustain us I have similar memories and I am grateful to have those!

 

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Shel , I’m only going to Buck Palace with my daughter because she was awarded on the Queen’s New Year’s Honours List this year - it was for her pioneering work in mental health - normally I would steer away from that kind of fussy formality but this is special for my girl.  She has been to the Queen’s garden parties before and has had residential courses in Windsor castle so she is very relaxed about it all ( a bit embarrassed about all the attention if anything) .    

Carol and Shel , you are both remembering lovely times with your sons - I’m struggling to do that properly and freely -  I am overly focused on the fact that he is dead .  I need to work on that as I’m doing him an injustice as he was the most amazingly loving, gentle and kind person.   I’m going to do that - I’m going to shift my gaze to happier times and embrace David’s wonderful, meaningful life.   He was the champion of the underdog and I’m so proud of him.  Thanks girls - you have woken me up to what I must do .   Roz

 

[Shel]

Roz congratulations to your daughter what an amazing honor! It is hard remembering the wonderful times when Blake was a child there’s times I still can’t believe he’s not here and I am in denial. I wish I could trade places with him he needs to be here with his new baby but this is what it is and I have to figure out how to move on we all do thinking of you Roz and sending lots of hugs!

[Michael Rodriguez]

guys, thanks.....one of the reason that we are doing it is that we plan to spend half of the year in the states that way he can  be with us always. ill be 60 this year and my wife will be 58. i have been working basically non stop for over 30 years and its time to start taking it a little bit easier. we are getting a sealed urn for traveling. we are buying a home in portland close to our daughter.

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That’s a good plan , Michael.       Roz

 

[Mason’s Mom]

Michael I think that is very good.  You won't regret being closer to your daughter and having B with you. 

[Michael Rodriguez]

thanks guys

[Shel]

Michael I agree it’s time for you to take a break and be closer to your daughter and always having B with you!

[Lisa M.]

I too have Don home with me.   It is sad and comforting at the same time.  But I wouldn't want it any other way. Today is 9 months since he left me.   My body and mind seem to know exactly what day it is without looking at the actual date.  Does that make sense?  I have started pre- paying for my own cremation.   While some people  think I  am being morbid,  I find it somewhat comforting to know it is one less thing my dear daughter will have to worry about when the time comes.  While I know things will be hard for her still,  I want to help in anyway I can.   That is just how I am.  I want to say I am thinking about you all and I say a prayer everyday for each  and every one of you.  Please think of me  today and help me maneuver this path of what could I have done differently,  I  should have known  he was drinking and any other thought  of how I could have been a better mother.   Bless you all.

[Michael Rodriguez]

bless you lisa....im goin thru a rough patch also....it will be 10 months on monday and as silly as it sounds, it will be the first time i watch the superbowl with out my son and a lot of other people...  ill just watch it alone

[Mason’s Mom]

Lisa, it isn't morbid to prepay and make arrangements. It is thoughtful. I wish I could offer words of wisdom about the what ifs and what you could have done differently. I am sure Don knew you love him and I hope you find comfort with that. 

Michael all the first are so hard. Things that most people take for granted become a painful reminders of what we are missing. 

Peace and comfort to all,

Carol

[Danielle Masata]

Lisa, there are so many regrets I have too.  I'm sorry.  I have many regrets about what I should have differently to prevent Patrick's succumbing to addiction.  Why didn't I fully understand that what he was doing would kill him?  And it's a constant reminder.  Even now, a year later, I find another hidden bottle of beer in the back of a closet or ashes from smoking something illegal in our basement and again saddened that I didn't know just how pervasive his addiction was.  He was like a 15 year old kid and spent way too much energy hiding his substances from us.  

And now I have regrets about what I should have done differently to prevent my dear husband's death.  I'm convinced he died of Heartbreak over losing our son. But these days, I try not to think of what I could have done because that doesn't change the outcome. Instead, I just try to live my best for the future.  The present and the future I can control, whereas the past is behind me. Nothing I do now can change the loss I feel so every moment, every day.  Day and night. Deep, deep grief I experience all over again.

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Danielle,  From what you have told us about your husband and his amazing care of Patrick - like spending time at large celebrations outside in the car with Patrick helping him to cope - I can see why you think that your husband could have died of a broken heart - you both lost not only a son but also your dedicated roles of looking out for Patrick.  
  What could you have done to keep both of them alive?   Nothing at all .   I think that many of us are surprised that we ourselves have not died of our grief.     
Is your son and his girlfriend still with you?    You will have a lot of thinking to do and will be bouncing around between what has been and what is to come.    I hope that you don’t need to make many decisions right away and can have some space and take your time.   It has all been so alarmingly sudden .  
Everyone  is thinking of you ,  Roz

[NiquesMom]

Danielle, so many times that first year I thought I would die of a broken heart. It literally hurt to breathe and think. And yet I am here. And that doesnt seem fair. Nique should be here, not me. As Nique was growing up I made sure to try and give her so many good memories so that when I died she would have them to draw on. She should be here. Her, not me. Yet we continue for those also left here, to be strong for them.

I am so sorry about your husband. I am typing this sitting next to christophers bed in ICU. I try to remain positive but if he dies, its going to be like losing Nique again because he is the one with all the shared memories. We dont just lose the person, we lose the sharing of those memories with the people that were there. Laughing as he remembers too. Do you feel that? 

Today is valentine's day, and I bought Christopher a card: one to cheer him up, and also what if it is the last one? I am two people, one with hope he will cone home, and one looking at cremation costs. Same as being two people after Nique died: the me from before and the me after.

Michael, I didnt even turn on the super bowl. Normally I watch the comericals with my husband. Instead I went to the grocery store.

Lisa, I think I will also preplan, save my son the stress. Nothing morbid about acknowledging we will all die, and wanting to save our children from this chore.

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Lisa,   please don’t torture yourself - even if you had known that Don was drinking how could you have stopped him?  Your son wouldn’t want you taking on any blame for what happened.   Good , kind and gentle people can get so caught up in their addiction  it is such a sad waste or their lives but their lives were still worthwhile and I understand from what you have said that you shared a lovely bond of love with him,     I know how much you are suffering .

planning arrangements for your end is a kind thing to do - no need to dwell - just have the peace of mind that it’s all organised and your daughter will not have to struggle any more than she has to.  
 

Kindest thoughts to you.   Roz

 

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Virginia,  you have answered the questions I was about to ask about Christopher.    It must be a difficult line to walk having hope and also being prepared - I’m sorry you are in this position.  
My son should still be here - living his life bringing up his son - not me or my husband still being around .   Either one of us would have changed places with him if we could.     It is all out of order losing a child - unbearable agony - but what can we do but carry on and do the best we can.    Roz
 

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Michael,  I’m sorry that you are in a particularly rough patch.    Your everyday life with B was very close so of course absolutely everything must shout that he is missing .    You had such a lovely relationship with him .  
It is all so very hard .    Peace to you,  Roz

[Michael Rodriguez]

it is indeed hard.like it is hard on all of you ...they should still be here ...they should still be enjoying their lives. Ill be honest  i am so envious of those who have all their children. i did watch the superbowl , but it was not or will ever be the same. today is 10 months since B left and the pain becomes harder by the day; every day that goes by, every second that goes by, it is just a longer span of time since i last saw him. 

you know danielle , your husband is already with patrick . they are both looking over you so at least have that comfort that patrick is taking care of his dad and his dad is taking care of him ....have faith one day , you all will be together again. 

[Samantha’s mom]

Hi, This is my first time posting on here, although I have been reading peoples posts for the past few years. My sweet girl Samantha died May 4, 2016.  She had special needs and I miss her so much. I am so sorry for all of you who have lost your children.  I believe in Jesus and that my girl is in heaven with him but it’s still so hard to be without my child.

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Hello Samantha’s Mom,   I’m really sorry that you lost your sweet Samantha - it is such a painful sadness that we all share.   My son , David, died at the end of the same year as Samantha - it’s hard to believe that those years have passed .  David lived in Australia and was married with a young son - Dave’s dad and I live in the uk so it was already difficult for us with our son and grandson on the other side of the world .

It is incredibly hard to be without our children but it must be comforting to know that she is with Jesus and is safe in heaven.  

The grief we hold when we lose a child is like no other and true empathy is what I feel I get on this site - please take care and post again whenever you feel like it - there will be others who read here but just don’t have the energy or need to join in - that was me too for such a long time .   Roz

[Dewbs]

I don't get on this forum often enough.  I feel like I have so much to say and nothing to say...  I hate that we are all on this terrible journey.  Some of us are new and some of us have been dealing with it for years.  It doesn't get any easier.  My son's 32nd birthday is next week.  He is forever 27 to me.  I still struggle every day with the loss.  Life goes on, but I still have no peace with his death.  I have done everything that I know to do, and I am very grateful that I have a living son and 2 grandchildren - what blessings they are!  I don't want to sound ungrateful, but it is a struggle as you all know.  Some seasons worse than others.  I pray for all of you every day...and some days I am not sure I know who I am praying to.  I hope that doesn't offend anyone either way - my faith or my doubt.  

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Dewbs,  Exactly that - for me it is that I have so much to say but nothing new .     I think I am a bit at sea with what I believe and what I want to believe- I see that those with strong religious beliefs can find comfort in that certainty - I don’t have that but I don’t worry about it either.   No one here judges and there is no attempt at persuasion - we just unite in our grief and although that sounds bleak it is actually very supportive.

My David’s death overshadows most of my life - that sounds very unhealthy but I’m afraid it’s true - it takes another grieving parent to understand that.  I live my life but it is always there with me that my son is gone .  My life has changed forever but I realise that I’m finding a way to engage again  - even if sometimes I’m faking it mostly for the sake of others.     Genuine joy is found in my grandson and my daughter .   My husband and I share the grief and monumental loss of our son - we try to take an outside interest but we find ourselves just going through the motions and maybe that is the route back to something else.  We shall see.
 

Take care,  Roz

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Michael,   Thinking of you and your family at what must be an extra emotional time.    I hope everything goes as smoothly as possible with the arrangements and you can soon have B with you  Roz

 

[Michael Rodriguez]

 

B is already home .......

[Danielle Masata]

Hi all. I'm still here, although now suffering with something new: vertigo.  I don't want to admit this to my son in GA as they'd be in a panic, but it's really awful.  I looked up why I might be feeling this way and see I have many of the causes: low blood sugar (diabetes has been awful, no matter what I do to fix it), my anxiety (it's SO constant and each day, the list of what I need to accomplish is endless.  Nonetheless, I still don't accomplish much given my emotional level), and inner ear problems (my hearing has always been an issue.  I suspect my inner ears need checking too.  Lost one hearing aide weeks ago, so I need to replace that too.)  Meanwhile, I'm just banging into walls, spilling coffee, and  as I sit here, feel as if I'm experiencing an earthquake.  Ugh!

Decisions to be made: they are endless, just endless.  Now I'm getting letters telling me how incompetent I am and that I'm late.  But all these documents confuse me.  Tomorrow my older brother will be here to explain some of the language, thank God.  Some has been kind of easy and not affecting tax issues: like transferring from husband to surviving wife.  But other documents ask me to name beneficiaries (which would be our kids), but I have to ask the lawyer and tax accountant for advice to confirm this.  Do I need them to write up a new will and other documents?  All this is so new.  I just wish my dear husband was here to guide me. Then there's other issues to deal with, like a new phone program because our old one "retired" or other accounts that would have provided a financial benefit but since they are now completely closed, I lost out not knowing this in advance of getting accounts closed.  Is it no wonder why my anxiety level is through the roof?  And then, the roof is another issue: we've had wind and frigid cold problems as a result of weather that my husband used to handle.  Reminds me of what we went through after Hurricane Sandy when the whole coastal area in NJ was destroyed.  I should have learned how my husband handled that.  It was so extensive and since it was so wiped out, we weren't even allowed to go visit the area.

Meanwhile, I know I need to return here.  This site saved me last year when I was coping with the loss of my son.  I know writing all this will help me re-establish priorities and focus on what's really important, but right now, I'm just able to do that just yet.  Just know you are all in my hearts and I love hearing what you're coping with.  (Welcome home B. and more prayers to Chris in the ICU.)

 

[Lisa M.]

I believe I mentioned a while back that my relationship with my daughter in law  has become estranged.   When I stopped giving her money,   she cut off all communication.   This weekend I heard she was in the hospital with Covid and on a breathing machine.   I reached out to her and let her know I was praying for her.  When she got out of the hospital, she called me.  We talked for over an hour.   I listened to her express her feelings.    I validated so many of those feelings.   However,  in the middle of this conversation  she punched me in the gut when she said that her grief was more than mine because I still had a husband.   I didn't know what to say,  so I said nothing.  The truth is that unless you have lost a child, regardless of age, you will never know or experience the level of grief that comes with it.  She insinuated that I  should be able to move on before she will be able to.  Fact is ...I will never be moving on, I will be learning to cope.  

I want to say welcome to all the new posters.  Not sure welcome is the right word but you know what I mean.   My thoughts and prayers are with you all on this journey. 

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Danielle , what a mountain you are climbing .  Sounds like a horrendous amount of paperwork to get through - I’m just dealing with the unexpected and chilling discovery that the solicitor’s practice that held our land deeds were corrupt and were raided and closed down years ago .  We are back and forth with the law society trying to find our deeds and that is stressful enough so heaven help you with so many crucial documents to navigate.   Lists galore must be the order of the day.  Take good care.    

Lisa M,   That was lovely of you to reach out to you daughter- in - law I’m so glad it was received well and that you had that conversation.    She will not understand your forever grief and I hope that she never will.       I hope that you can keep open the dialogue with her and overlook her mistaken assumptions about your grief compared to hers .

peace,    Roz

[NiquesMom]

Lisa, she doesnt understand. When I was 19 my mom died and I remember having a "discussion" with her mom. She told me it was worse for her because it was her child and I said "but shes my mom!"  Being on this side I understand what she meant but also we should not try to compare grief. Loss is loss and we are all hurting, and I try to remember that when people are heartbroken when their pet dies, their "furbaby." I know they are feeling loss and they need to express it. Please try not to hold her senseless comment against her because she doesnt understand.

Danielle, I am so sorry for all the stress. I feel some of that trying to deal with all the bills that are coming in. They are in his name and he literally has no voice because he is on the vent, so none of the companies want to talk to me because he hasnt given permission. They want my money but wont answer any questions. So frustrating! Im glad your brother is coming.

Michael, I am glad B is home with you. Thats why I had Nique cremated, didnt want her in another state from me.

I think I am sinking into depression and I dont know how to change it. I kept telling myself this isn't forever when he went into the hospital. But now we are at 6 months and its starting to feel like forever.

Sorry if I missed anyone on here, hard to keep everything straight. I know there are new people and I am sorry u are here.

[Michael Rodriguez]

 

please tell me if this worked......i see that the last time i tried it did not open !!!

virginia is christopher still in ICU or as he been moved to a normal room. I have a friend that , finally after 9 months and a lung removal, he is back in a hospital room expected to be release within the next few weeks. Hi danielle im glad you are still here , but i see you are really struggling with health issues. i have been really busy and i have not been here that much , except when i first tried to post B's picture. 

let me tell you. it was quite a dramatic experience the whole thing , but it does bring some relief having him back home 

[NiquesMom]

That's a wonderful picture Michael!

Yes, Christopher is still in the ICU, back on the vent. Frustrated because we are right back where we were in September. 

[Michael Rodriguez]

at this point do you have any other choice but being strong and keep on going? how is kyle?

[Mason’s Mom]

Michael great picture. 

Nique  I wonder how some people get through life with such ease. You have faced So much and you still encourage others. You are so kind , I think you are an amazing human and I think about you and aend good thoughts your way. 

Danielle I hope your brother can take some of the burden off you and help with all the paperwork and other legal matters. 

Roz, I saw on the news that Queen Elizabeth has Covid and I immediately thought about you. I hope she has a quick recovery and your trip with your daughter is as wonderful as a imagine. 

I sent the application for Mason's Memorial Scholarship to the school a few hours ago. It is very emotional for me.I want to continue to honor hom and continue helping young people better themselves but every time I see his name associated with a Memorial it hurts. 

Peace and comfort, 

Carol

[Danielle Masata]

Lisa, how unkind your d-i-l was to you, as if one has to compare grief!  (Professionals actually say that sense of grief is much greater when you lose a child than when you lose a spouse.  Think of it this in the cruelest way, you can remarry after a losing a spouse, but you can't exactly replace a child with another child when your child passes.  Once a parent, you're always a parent, but if you lose a partner, you're a widow/widower. But all that is too logical for your D-i-L, so it's good you just didn't respond.  In truth, now having lost both my son AND my husband, it is different, because the relationship is different, but my sense of loss is intense for both.  

Michael, I love how you celebrate B's memories!  Truly adorable.  Virginia, bless you for what you're going through.  Carol, I know it's agony to see Mason's name used, but I love your dedication.  You inspire me.  I started a memorial scholarship for Patrick at his high school last year and I'll do it again this year as well.  Thanks for the reminder to call the school when everyone returns from vacation tomorrow.

[Mason’s Mom]

Having a rough time.  My oldest daughter is having a great deal of pain,  can't keep food down and had other issues.  She underwent tests yesterday and they didn't find the cause.  Blood test reveal she is very anemic and may need blood.  She's having exploratory surgery Friday. I am scared and trying to be strong. 

[Danielle Masata]

Hi Carol.  So sorry about your daughter.  Is this a recurring problem?  Has she experienced this type of pain before?  As you may know, my dog and I are a pet therapy team and we always go to the pediatrics department as one of our stops.  It was doing regular visits there that I discovered a most unusual problem that many girls experience because they come to our hospital specifically to get surgery done by this specialist there, only one of two who perform the surgery in the country!  I have now met girls (and some young men) from all over the world who have come to get this surgery for a problem known as MAL.  There's a Facebook group some have set up too.  I have heard these girls talk about the years and years of extensive tests they have undergone and the many times they've been told it's psychological, only to discover it's an actual medical issue.  Check it out.  From the internet, "Median arcuate ligament syndrome (MALS) is a rare condition in which the median arcuate ligament (located under the diaphragm in the abdomen) compresses the celiac artery, impairing blood flow to the stomach, liver, and other organs. It causes chronic abdominal pain, which can occur with eating or exercise." I hope your daughter's case is less extreme than what I've heard about, but here's another avenue to explore.  I can share more details, (doctor, hospital etc.) if you'd like.  Just message me, Danielle

[Mason’s Mom]

Thanks Danielle this has been going on for awhile and she thought it was pregnancy.  Magnolia is almost 7 months old and it us getting worse.  She had gastric bypass surgery almost 5 years ago so she is going back to that group for testing. If we find no answers I will message you. 

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Carol,  you must all be very anxious, that’s understandable.    I trust that she gets some answers and solutions soon .   I’m sure you are on high alert but doing your best to reassure your family and that will take a lot out of you too.

All your friends here will be sending our prayers and positive energy.   I hope that all will be well very quickly.  Love , Roz

[Changed]

Danielle, that was very interesting information.  We just don’t know what we don’t know do we?
How are you keeping?    Life must feel very wrong  - as if you’re  walking on soft sand and trying to steady yourself- it will take some time to adjust.   Lots of thinking and sadness for you to deal with now the initial wave of paperwork is completed  and you try to carry on - kindest thoughts to you,  Roz

[NiquesMom]

Carol, I am praying for you and your daughter. The waiting is so hard, I hope you get some answers soon.

Danielle, how are you holding up? Is there anything I can do? Hang in there, breathe, cry

[Danielle Masata]

When Patrick died, we were stunned but also relieved.  Stunned because he was so very, very smart that it was a surprise that he miscalculated about how much his body could take.  (Probably forgot to include the drugs that he still had in his system from days earlier(.... but we were also not surprised.  He had suffered al his life and I actually had a feeling of relief for him.  He was finally at rest.

But my husband's case was so very different.  He had planned all his life to work hard, save money, and enjoy retirement.  He also did everything right: never smoked cigarettes, exercised regularly and saw his doctor, watched his diet, no that he needed to but just the keep score.That would have been true except that the pandemic cut those dreams.  We were especially "free" once we no longer had to worry about leaving Patrick alone and lonely.  Except that we couldn't go anywhere.  During the year, we started to feel more com comfortable about traveling now that we finally got our vaccines.  Then we added boosters and really felt protected.  He died on a Wednesday, 1/12 and yet we were supposed to go to Florida in three days: Saturday 1/15.  We so wanted to feel warm FL air, watch the sunset in T-shirts and shorts, and finally enjoy comfortable weather and skies. Never happened.  No fair!

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Lisa M - I am also having difficulties getting on this site on my latest iPad - think it said SSL issue - but my old one still allows it , so , for now, that is what I’m getting here on.  It must be my Norton subscription on my newest iPad shielding me.  I have reported it to Kelly  - you could try that too as I’m sure that they would like to know if people are being blocked.    Someone at the door - I’ll pop back soon .  Roz
 

 

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Carol,  how is Morgan doing?    I do hope it is a quick fix and you can all relax a little.  Roz x 

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Lisa M,  your thoughts about your last time with Don is something we can all relate to no matter how the circumstances differ between our losses.  The horrible thing is that you will probably continue to relive those moments - I certainly replay times that I wish had never happened regarding my son, David, and I’m five years in.     He is always on my mind and I am so sad that he is not around - it is still quite unbelievable that that is true.
We learn to live with these thoughts - I know that sounds dreadful but we are not going to forget those times or stop caring so the only thing we can do is live with them -  but it will be less raw than it is for you right now.    Roz