grief ... neural pathways

[Boggled]

Studying the brain in the context of grief seems to have become a "thing" lately;  in this article, for instance, dated Nov 3 2023:

How the Brain Rewires as We Grieve | Psychology Today

Thinking about the article which seems to me to be well written, one bit of it struck me as "she's making an ASSUMPTION here that is NOT backed up:"  (using color for quoting from the above article:)

Making Sense of It

In addition to redrawing the neural map of your relationship, your brain is also trying to make sense of your beloved's absence. Specifically, your brain struggles to reconcile two opposing pieces of knowledge—the conscious knowledge that they are gone, and the powerful, implicit knowledge that they are everlasting. This struggle explains some of the more bewildering and crazy-making aspects of grieving. For example:

 

• You can’t seem to absorb the news that they are gone. How can they be gone? They are everlasting!
• You may feel, see, or hear your loved one, because your brain is still holding onto here, now, and close, and interprets common sensations, sights, and sounds as signs of their presence.
• You may feel disorientated and wonder if you’ll wake up from this bad dream, because surely, they are everlasting and you will be reunited.

Each time you confront these two opposing pieces of knowledge, it triggers painful grief and you yearn deeply.

and ... more articles from searching ... neural pathways grief ...   :

How Grief Can Change the Brain | Psychology Today

How grief rewires the brain and can affect health – and what to do about it | American Heart Association

Healing Your Brain After Loss: How Grief Rewires the Brain (americanbrainfoundation.org)

 

there also seems to be a danger to beware of, that you could create a strong "neural pathway" that is similar to what Dr. Norman Doidge discussed about chronic pain, (Amazon.com: The Brain's Way of Healing: Remarkable Discoveries and Recoveries from the Frontiers of Neuroplasticity: 9780670025503: Doidge, Norman  ) ... where his PHYSICAL pain was healed by his body, but his "neural pathway" for that pain continued, leaving him feeling chronic pain ... and he was able to eliminate that pathway finally, but it was difficult, used his expertise as a neuro-whatever, and required some creativity ... the danger being that he COULD HAVE just continued with the chronic brain-pain even though his body had healed.

anyway, to get back to my own original disagreement with the first article on here, this bit (in green above) seems to me ... unfounded conclusion IMHO!  although these scientific articles are interesting and shed light on what's happening to us, the "scientific" perception is only of the material world, eh?  but IS our entire existence really solely material?  

Edited November 9 by Boggled
Dr, not Mr and reference to his book

[Boggled]

and DWS, (if you see this), you had mentioned in the "random thoughts" thread, how we see such things as people on TV "getting over it" within a couple of weeks and internalize these ideas.  Internalizing that idea, that "if we see or hear our loved ones, it's just your physical brain ... neural pathways ... some physical part ... causing you to IMAGINE it ... isn't this a similar thing?  when a brain scientist says something like:

8 minutes ago, Boggled said:

You may feel, see, or hear your loved one, because your brain is still holding onto here, now, and close, and interprets common sensations, sights, and sounds as signs of their presence.

well ...  this sort of thing may or MAY NOT really be true, IMHO.   It's an ASSUMPTION.

[Boggled]

and considering science and assumptions (hahahahaha!) that's the "scientific method," isn't it?  

well in MY humble opinion it starts with "theory," but I'm no expert:  Category:Scientific method - Wikimedia Commons

[DWS]

Thanks for the links and starting this topic. The scientific part of grief certainly has been intriguing to me although I find there's also a bittersweetness to it. On the positive, our continual indefinite grieving can be said to have a science-based rationality to it so nyah-nyah to all of those out there who wonder why I just can't "get over it". However, on the negative, science always has a way of taking the magic out of things and it sounds like in the future, if I wanted to, they could just open up my brain, do a bit of rewiring and take the grief away permanently. Spock did something similar to Kirk in an episode of Star Trek...did a Vulcan mind meld to make him forget about one of his many female conquests. 

I did like reading this..."You’re not crazy; your brain is rewiring itself, and you need time to feel whole again, reinvent your life, and ease into a different future without your beloved." That nicely complements my telling others that my mind is really messed up for now. 

[Jemiga70]

11 hours ago, Boggled said:

anyway, to get back to my own original disagreement with the first article on here, this bit (in green above) seems to me ... unfounded conclusion IMHO!  although these scientific articles are interesting and shed light on what's happening to us, the "scientific" perception is only of the material world, eh?  but IS our entire existence really solely material? 

Psych Today, like any mainstream gatekeeper, is an organ of materialism. Science can't tell us what consciousness is or where it resides. It can't tell us if the brain creates consciousness or rather filters it.  Anything that falls outside materialism (can't see, feel, taste, touch or hear it) can't be measured by today's tools of science and therefore cannot exist. Yet there are mountains of evidence suggesting there is far more going on than material science would have us believe.

11 hours ago, Boggled said:

You may feel, see, or hear your loved one, because your brain is still holding onto here, now, and close, and interprets common sensations, sights, and sounds as signs of their presence.

They should tell that to people who've felt their loved one's presence and know damn well it wasn't their own brain. Reminds me of the scenes in "Life With Ghosts" by Stephen Berkley where the shrink is telling his widowed patient she's not really experiencing the presence of her dead husband, because, of course, it's just not possible. What about people who've seen apparitions but had absolutely no connection/bond to the deceased? Why would their brain be "holding on" to anything?

[Boggled]

I DO like this article, though, quite a LOT.  I THINK she has something there, when she says:  "Each time you confront these two opposing pieces of knowledge, it triggers painful grief and you yearn deeply."  So many times, I've said to myself, "I can't believe you're gone," and it's when I see some reminder of him, (latest, his sunglasses sitting on a counter next to a post-it note with his handwriting on it), that I remember/recognize (not ACCEPT) (but that's just semantics, really, it's what whatzhername MEANT by "accept") ... HE DIED.  

That recognition used to be like a white-hot coal, untouchable, then I became able to type it.  But when that recognition intersects, in my conscious mind, with what the article calls the idea of "everlasting," that's when really heavy GRIEF and SORROW and PAIN hit.

and she says this "everlasting" idea starts out in EARLY CHILDHOOD:  "These dimensions are also described as here, now, and close, referring to our ability, learned during early childhood, to soothe ourselves when separated by calling up a mental representation of our loved one and counting on our reunion."  this is the concept that she calls "everlasting" and "here, now, and close."

I know that in introspection of myself, I've recognized an extremely childlike part of me that I think of as "stubborn," that WILL NOT believe that my husband, Steve, is GONE.    so.  SHE'S RIGHT!  and a lot of this article, I think, is excellent!!!

So, Jemiga70, I LOVE what you said, hahahahaHA!:

3 hours ago, Jemiga70 said:

They should tell that to people who've felt their loved one's presence and know damn well it wasn't their own brain.

Again, similarly to the way people who have not experienced deep grief, can't relate to it, it's the same thing, a scientist who has not experienced their dead loved one's presence ... CAN'T RELATE TO IT.  hahahaha!  I'm laughing, it's kind of pitiful, but it's also FUNNY.

[Boggled]

I think it's one of the things we learn in this grief, this idea that there are "new" things like this really AMAZING for its overwhelmingness and its power, grief, that most people, who may have had a loved one die (but it was not the same as the deeply loving experience we on this board seem to have had, as well as the deep grief so many on this board also express) and think they know what they're talking about when they say "just get over it," really ... DO NOT KNOW.  They've never felt it!  and so they can't understand it and they can't begin to relate to it.

Which is why I think this incredible grief is like a lesson.

3 hours ago, Jemiga70 said:

Psych Today, like any mainstream gatekeeper, is an organ of materialism. Science can't tell us what consciousness is or where it resides. It can't tell us if the brain creates consciousness or rather filters it.  Anything that falls outside materialism (can't see, feel, taste, touch or hear it) can't be measured by today's tools of science and therefore cannot exist. Yet there are mountains of evidence suggesting there is far more going on than material science would have us believe.

Jemiga70, I am not a "scientist."   But I pretty much agree that up till now it has been an organ of materialism, as you say.  The internet, though!  Speeds everthing up, allows people to communicate far better than they have communicated before the internet existed.  I can say, "I tried Creative Visualization by watching the VCR tape by Shakti Gawain, and I visualized meeting up with an English professor I wanted to talk to, went to bed, got up the next morning, went garage-saleing, and there was that very professor I had visualized wanting to talk to, having a garage sale!  and I got to talk to him."  I can say that, (and btw, it's true! and it boggled my mind!), and many other people can also express things that have happened to them, that seem miraculous! ... and communicate far faster via the internet.  And "science" has to perceive it too.    hahahahahaha!

[KayC]

I think this bears telling again, many of you hadn't heard it.

In 2013 I was set to go on vacation with Arlie...instead I was told my job was ending THAT DAY and I could drive the 100 mile trip back on Sat. to clean out my desk.  Nice.

We never did get to go on the vacation and Arlie died six years later.

I lived off my meager savings for four years before running out of $ and filing social security a year early, taking a penalty for life. In addition they'd "lost" two years I worked full time (had filed taxes with CPA but it was in 92 and 93 and proof long gone, so more $ Social Security didn't credit me for).    I called social security to find out how much I'd get and got a horrible lady that wanted off work and didn't want to bother with me...I'd held for an hour to get her.  She told me I'd get $200/month!  WHAT?!! I worked all my life, paid in, WTH!!!  She told me to call my local office and hung up.  I tried, they'd just closed and it was a holiday weekend, so three days to wait...and with this hanging over my head!  No one would hire me, age discrimination, recession, I'd already been through all that.  

I'm laying on my bed, face down that night, can't remember if I was crying or not, but all of a sudden I felt George's hand on my back/shoulder....I'd know that touch anywhere!  Instantly I felt calm peace, as only he could do, the way I always felt when he held me, like all was right with the world.  And it carried me through until Tuesday when I called Soc. Sec. and got the nicest man.  He told me how much I'd get (better than $200) and offered to file for me, even setting up the Medicare deduction.  He was wonderful, I often wish I had his name so I could personally thank him.

But it was George who carried me through that weekend.  I haven't had his touch since, but if I never do this side of heaven, that was something I will never forget.  I didn't conjure it up, I hadn't asked for a sign, it just happened, when I most needed it.  And we will be together again, I know it.

 

[Boggled]

KayC, what you felt is similar to me feeling Steve hug me in my kitchen.  

On 11/10/2023 at 6:47 AM, KayC said:

I'd know that touch anywhere!  Instantly I felt calm peace, as only he could do, the way I always felt when he held me, like all was right with the world. 

Same here!!!!!!!!     

 

On 11/10/2023 at 6:47 AM, KayC said:

I haven't had his touch since, but if I never do this side of heaven, that was something I will never forget.  I didn't conjure it up, I hadn't asked for a sign, it just happened, when I most needed it.  And we will be together again, I know it.

Same here!   

[Boggled]

which Boggled me.  For good and all, I'm Boggled.  hahahahahaha!    Absolutely convinced he's still "out there," and being this convinced IS BOGGLING.

Many corrolaries.  Is prophecy real?  I wouldda taken it with about a pound of salt in "the old days;"  now, hunh.  Could be!

Are our "minds" created by our brains or are they separate?  hmmm.  Seems to me in light of "my experience," they're SEPARATE!

What is our "will?"  I've tried to ask people, "lift your arm." and THINK, while you're doing it, what part of your "mind" decides to DO IT, lift your arm, what part of your "mind" chooses and causes your arm to lift?  

If everything is physical and goes back back back over the eons to the first chemical interacting with another chemical and WHAMMO!  allofasudden "life" exists (how come that doesn't happen more often??) and everything, everything, is interacting chemicals and physical forces, then ... you choosing to lift your arm that you IMAGINE is "you choosing," is just the end result of a chain of physical things happening right back to the "Big Bang," huh?

KayC, thinking "like a scientist," ... I was on keto I do believe, at the time I felt Steve hug me.  You too are on keto.  Coincidence?  I've cycled back to carbs for several months now, but at the time I was on keto.   Just another thing to wonder about.  

... but.  Just remembered, for you, you probably weren't on keto at the time you felt George, KayC, right?  so ... never mind.   

 

[Jemiga70]

On 11/10/2023 at 6:47 AM, KayC said:

I didn't conjure it up, I hadn't asked for a sign, it just happened, when I most needed it.  And we will be together again, I know it.

And I am certain nobody could ever convince you otherwise.  You KNOW what you experienced; that is your proof.

They seem to come through when we most need them.

[Jemiga70]

Figure this topic fits the video I'd like to share.  Stephen Berkley made a film called Life With Ghosts, which explores the effect of after death communication on grief.  He hosts a monthly video chat on YouTube with guest speakers. Cheryl Page is a pragmatic scientist who began to see the world differently after her partner Scott passed unexpectedly in 2017.  There is also a Part 2, a Q & A.

 

[Boggled]

I do not like watching LONG videos BUT I did watch and listen to this whole video.    It's GREAT.   Thanks, Jemiga70!

My notes on it:  "If I could say "what if," it left me in a place of possibility rather than my historical stance which was "that's not true.  That's not possible."  ... 
As opposed to "what if"  That's what saved me.

(later) ... "Prayer is asking and thinking, meditation is LISTENING.  I began listening ... for Scott."

(later)  ...  equasion ... "A (meditation) plus B (intention) equals C (outcome)  ....... pay attention to B."

(and later she adds (ASK) to B (intention)

(later)  ... "if you're upregulating your central nervous system what are you doing?  You're making yourself a bigger radio antenna.  And the radio antenna receives the information and transduces it into useful information."

Fill yourself with dog-joy?  Joy like a dog when you come home from work .. higher frequency.

"we have a vibrationship.  Two people on different vibrational octaves. ... "

and later I didn't write it down, but she mentions, if you're not seeing signs, don't blame them, you have to (something) you have to be creative ...

 

[Jemiga70]

She's pragmatic and well spoken, and that's why the interview resonated with me, incl the lines you quoted. Glad you got something from it.