Unforgiven

[Perro J]

At the end of the movie Unforgiven, as Clint Eastwood (Will Munny) comes to give Gene Hackman (Little Bill) his comeuppance, there is the following dialog:

Little Bill: I don't deserve this... to die like this. I was building a house.

Will Munny: Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.

The scene was suggested to me as a reference by a friend as a response to my insistence that "She didn't deserve this", meaning the cancer before her death or simply her death after it had occurred.

I don't like hearing it, It doesn't bring me comfort right this moment. In fact, it hurts. There is one filter I need to run it through though: Is it true?

To say deserve has nothing to do with it - seems to hold water. It does not negate my position that she did not deserve it. It can still be true that she deserves neither illness nor death but it brings me no closer to the answer to my question "Why is she gone now?" The answer to that I seek because it seems as if understanding the reason might offer some relief to the pain of losing her. That may or may not be true and I may never know the reason why.

So I add this to the list of things that people say that really don't make me feel any better and in fact even sting as I hear them. I've read enough of the posts here now to know that it isn't uncommon to cringe at the comments of other people who are trying to be helpful.

I remember when I broke my arm as a youth - and I had to go to the doctor to get it reset and a cast put on. Having that bone reset was probably the most intense physical pain I have ever experienced. It hurt terribly. I wanted to punch the doctor. It was, however, necessary. I was the one that was wounded. I had to endure some hurt in order to begin to heal.

I am not saying there aren't comments which are stupid and insensitive - there surely are - but I share this as a realization that some things said which hurt immediately, might actually have some value in helping us heal over the longer term. Because we already hurt, we might wish to lash back at some of the things we hear. Don't dismiss those comments too quickly. Some of them may indeed be junk that ought be forgotten. Some of them might contain the medicine we need.

[MODArtemis2019]

I'm very sorry for your loss Perro J. It was so recent; your wound is still very raw. 

I'm not sure Unforgiven relates to your situation, as this film focuses on deliberate human violence and evil. I try to have compassion for our friends who don't understand the depth of our loss because they haven't endured it. Sometimes they just say painful things because they don't know what else to say. 

It's understandable to feel that our beloved doesn't deserve suffering and death. Is this not the nature of love? That we would rather feel the pain ourselves than let our beloved suffer? To me the sentiment "she didn't deserve this" tells the truth about your love for her. Whether it is literally true is another matter, but not necessarily relevant to your pain. 

We all know the literal truth- that everything living on this Earth will die. And yet knowing this does not protect us in any way from the pain of separation. 

In my grief journey (over one year now) I have struggled to accept the reality of what happened. Recently it occurred to me that while I can fully accept my own suffering, I still resist accepting my husband's suffering. I still want to say, "No it shouldn't have happened like that." My mind is still trying to unwind events and create a better ending. But ultimately I see acceptance as key to the path to healing. It takes time. 

[jwahlquist]

I haven’t seen the movie as I don’t care for violent and bloody movies.   But the idea of deserving to die or not as the case may be is hard to contemplate.    While my husband was in the ICU my daughter and I met a dad and his 2 daughters.   His wife had tried to commit suicide again but had lived and was being sent to a rehab facility.   So why did a woman that clearly wanted to die live while my husband that loved life died?   Did she deserve to die?   Did he deserve to live?   Honestly I don’t think that deserving has a whole lot to do with it.  Nor does fairness.   Because ultimately I am just going to drive myself crazy if I think like that and it changes nothing about my circumstances.  My least favorite thing to hear is “He’s in better place”.  I can not respond to that one kindly.   

[Art Thebes]

I've played that scene many times in my head, this past year; however, I'm "Little Bill", in my head.

I had just come home from a long day of building my career, my home, and my family. I just needed a little nap, before I got something to eat and then take my wife upstairs to bed.

I often wonder if it was ME that died that day, and not them... that would at least explain this never ending, yawning, black expanse, hellish maw that is constantly trying to swallow me whole... I certainly did not deserve to die that way... nor did my family.

How was the Curry? I miss cooking for my family.

[Perro J]

 

11 hours ago, MODArtemis2019 said:

I'm not sure Unforgiven relates to your situation, as this film focuses on deliberate human violence and evil.

I am not the right choice when it comes to film interpretation - I seem to walk away from films either missing the overall message or getting it wrong. From what others have said about the movie, I prefer the idea that it is Eastwood's final comment on the genre, where every death comes with a consequence - rather than simply killing a bad guy and walking away from that unchanged. In that sense, I agree the overall story isn't a great fit to my situation. However, I find it amusing that you mentioned this:

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We all know the literal truth- that everything living on this Earth will die.

and how nicely that fits in with another famous line from the movie. "We've all got it coming, kid." My real takeaway is this:

5 hours ago, jwahlquist said:

Honestly I don’t think that deserving has a whole lot to do with it.

I am currently reading the book When Bad Things Happen To Good People. I would not consider myself a Bible Thumper by any means but my departed love was a devout Catholic. I recall discussing the Bible with her and she asked me once what was my favorite part. I responded with The Book of Job, because this to me is the central question of religion: Why must we suffer? The book, if the scholars are correct, is the oldest book of the Bible. The author of the book When Bad Things.... dedicates a chapter to Job in his book. Job, if we take the biblical book at face value, was a righteous, pious, decent man. Satan comes along and discusses him with God and explains to God that Job is only good because of the blessings he has in life - take away those things and Job won't be such a good guy anymore. Despite the loss of home, family, health, and the suggestions of others to curse God, Job stays steadfast in his faith. Eventually he is rewarded with a new home and family. It seems all neat and tidy. In fact, his friends come by and preach the usual stuff. Don't lose faith. We have a loving God in heaven. The righteous will be rewarded and the wicked punished.

Job does not respond well to this.

It implies that his family was wicked, or he was wicked - and they were all being punished. Furthermore, what exactly is it that they were doing that warranted death? Especially since the whole premise of this carnage seems to originate with a bet between God and Satan. By the end of the book of Job, Job challenges God to provide evidence of his wrongdoings or admit that Job has suffered wrongly. In what is an unsatisfactory ending to me - God comes down to earth and effectively tells him "What do you know about running the world?" and Job opts to speak no more.

The author of When Bad Things...  then postulates the following:

1) God is all powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without Him willing it.

2) God is just and fair, and stands for people getting what they deserve, so that the good prosper and the wicked are punished.

3) Job is a good person.

Pick any two.

It could be said that the author of both books come to the conclusion that they reject #1, that Job rejects #2 and that Job's friends reject #3.

Right now, I think I am rejecting #2, because "Deserve's got nothing to do with it". The jury is still out for me.

The premise of the chapter in When Bad Things... seems to be that if we are willing to give up an all powerful God, who does not will every single thing in this world to happen and does not control everything - then certain things can happen for us such as we can turn to God for help, a loving God towards the poor, the widowed, the orphaned, without consideration of how they became poor, widowed, or orphaned. We can maintain our self respect because we no longer have to feel that God has judged nor condemned us. We can be angry at what has happened to us, rather than angry at God. We can realize our own compassion through our anger at injustice and suffering of others as being God-given and that that is truly the part that is God's will.

2 hours ago, Art Thebes said:

How was the Curry? I miss cooking for my family.

I am still looking for THE recipe. I've tried several and this one turned out pretty good. It is one of those dishes that usually tastes better the following day and I made enough to feed me for three days. There are a couple Thai restaurants in town that have different versions but both are excellent. I am hoping I can find a way to mimic at least one of them. I like things spicy.

 

[Art Thebes]

14 minutes ago, Perro J said:

1) God is all powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without Him willing it.

2) God is just and fair, and stands for people getting what they deserve, so that the good prosper and the wicked are punished.

I am by FAR, the LAST person to consult, when it comes to deities, or religion; 

however:

according to what is "known" (regardless of the religion you may or may not subscribe to, as they all more or less boil down to the same common denominators):

1) "God", is omnipotent. Hence, ALL POWERFUL.... (insert 'BOOM! Flash of fire/burning bush/etc. and Never mind that man behind the curtain')

2) they are also omniscient. Hence, all knowing.

3) they/it/he/she/someone with a REALLY weird daydream, is also -wait for it- OMNIPRESENT:

Meaning that whatever it is, is IN ALL THINGS: (and yes, a little clint is called for here) The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly... therefore, in rainbows, grass, blue skies, pain, Jeffery Dahmer, Martin Luther King Jr., bowling pins, birthing pains, first kisses, and the very molecules of O2, going up your nose (and the hairs therein), right now.

 

my hypothesis?

who the fuk are we to try to "cram" such a multi-dimensional being, into a tiny little 3 dimensional "shoe box"?? It just doesn't work.

24 minutes ago, Perro J said:

I am still looking for THE recipe. I've tried several and this one turned out pretty good. It is one of those dishes that usually tastes better the following day and I made enough to feed me for three days. There are a couple Thai restaurants in town that have different versions but both are excellent. I am hoping I can find a way to mimic at least one of them. I like things spicy.

I LOVE... no... NEED spice. My wife used to tease me that "my 'spicy' was 'broken'"; meaning, that I had NO idea that I had just made something unbearably hot, for the average person...

I have my own, and a local town favorite, recipe for Phad Prik Ginghee TaoHoo... a delicious, nutty, and quite spicy curry that goes well with noodles, shrimp, tofu... you name it. 

shoot me a txt; happy to share :)

 

[Perro J]

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IN ALL THINGS: (and yes, a little clint is called for here)

Admittedly I am a fan of Clint, but I am an even bigger Spinoza fanboy and I think we have to give him original credit on that one.

If you find some idle time, and no rush as I still have a supply of curry going, start typing up that recipe. The request is eventually coming!

[KayC]

16 hours ago, Perro J said:

1) God is all powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without Him willing it.

2) God is just and fair, and stands for people getting what they deserve, so that the good prosper and the wicked are punished.

Not sure I 100% agree, although I have that book and didn't get that gyst of it...I do believe God is all powerful, all knowing but I do not believe he "causes" bad things to happen as he did not come up with sin, he came up with the remedy for it and He has taken His hands off the world for a time to some extent but will reign it in someday...so I do not blame Him for everything that happens as some do.  That said, His knowledge and understanding is far more vast than my pea brain and I know and trust Him implicitly to bring even good from bad, I've seen it...I may not understand everything but I can rest in the One who does!

I know many of you will not agree or understand my thinking, and that is fine, there is more than one perception voiced here!