Grief and the Court System

[aprilsmom]

I will be at a mediation that day myself. On Mother's Day of 2004, a lady went through a stop sign on Pacific Coast Highway and my daughter Jami t-boned her. All the reports, witnesses, lady, said that Jami had the right of way. All Jami wanted was to be reimbursed for her medical and two weeks wages for her waitressing (about $1,000. The other side actually delayed this stupid hearing for TWO years because they did not want to pay Jami her wages. How ridiculous is that-she never asked for pain and suffering or anything. So, I want to be with her on the 24th and I will be praying all morning for you to hear what you need to hear and be able to move forward from the bureaucracy of lawyers, courts, etc.

Ya know, that accident totaled Jami's vehichle and she walked away from it. Timing is everything right? It so could have been her= and then 6 months later; her sister. Everything happens for a reason????????????

[ribitsmom]

Renee...I tell you what, I am now a firm believer in seatbelts. My kids have always worn them and my husband and I have never worn them, do as I say, not as I do...not great parenting skills, to be sure.

About a year after losing Bridge my son was caught in a storm (we had about 6" of rain in 1 hour) and his truck hydroplaned and rolled into a culvert that had waste deep water. His truck was totaled, the roof caved in where his head was supposed to be, water gushing in and all that scary stuff. He had a seatbelt on and kicked out a window to get out of his truck...not one bruise, scratch or anything else, all due to his seatbelt. We now wear seatbelts.

That first year after losing Bridge we were constantly in a panic about losing our son too. He had a 4 wheeling accident and broke his back, he rolled his car, he was in the hospital with a 104 deg. temp for a week, couldn't figure out why he had a temp...it was just none stop.

I will be pulling for your daughter, Jami on the 24th.

[willsmom]

Hello to all!!! I see you have been busy keeping the faith and the fight going strong~~How proud our children/babies would be. I have been at the beach since last Sunday, we came back two days early---Seven days is just too long---I miss home and my own stuff,my big dogs that can't come, and it is only about two hours away, so we said screw it and came home a little early.

Tell me how everyone is and how we all are doing??? I thought about everyone here and there. And Will passed through my mind fairly constantly. I did have only ONE panic problem, I dreamt he was there, and went looking...half asleep or half wishing, or just plain sad...Hubby went about nutts... I took two Xanax and finally stopped it. My hands have not curled up since Halloween almost two years ago, but all was calmer; I talked kinda slow for about three hours...LOL, but that was better than being in total lock up or the hospital. Anyway, that is the low down here....How about you guys??? Type soon and have a nice, nice weekend!!! I am just so, so glad to be home.... Allyson~~WillsMomm

[ribitsmom]

Well, yesterday was fun (NOT). We got up at 5:30 so we could arrive by 7:30 and didn't leave until after 8PM. Nothing was accomplished, it was actually a laugh. We will be at this for years...very discuraging at this point...of course, I could post tomorrow and say something completely different. But at this point I know in my heart that we are in the right and I will contine the fight, my daughter and all the other people that are in danger deserve this.

[willsmom]

Remember Denise...all this is a game to them; they are just making it rough, difficult, long and a pain in the ass. They are just dragging their feet because they can....and every day they delay, they hope you will throw your hands in the air and walk...Hell, I would tell the SOB's you don't give a damn if you all meet weekly for the next 100 years, but you aren't going anywhere and nor are your demands. Hang tough...I know it sucks, and it is terribly, terribly hard, but hang in there for your girl, and the seemingly invisible accoutablity we are all searching for....Stay strong...WillsMom~~Allyson

[ribitsmom]

Allyson, you are so right, I am not going anywhere. Of course, the next time they see me will 6 months to a year due to the legal system, but I will still be there pushing from my end. Thanks

[kirksdad]

Ribitsmom, Our legal system just doesn't understand much other than complete chaos and lack of understanding. The chaos is controlled, but it is still chaos. Justice is blind use to mean something other than it does now. It was meant to give people a fair chance, but now a days it means they turn a blind eye to the way deep pockets play more of a role than getting to the truth and being fair. It just suck, Allyson is so right. The only way to handle it is to do what your heart says, taking a stand isn't a bad thing. If it can save lives then you know you are in the right and they are just, like eveyone knows, playing the game.

[willsmom]

Why six months to a year? Does it work that way, if things fall through at the first mediation?? My, my---I had no idea how right iwas when I said they are just delaying to torment you and your family. How awful. Can you demand a trial and forego this prolonged torture? My attorney wants a trial--feels evidence is so damning that it would be a snap decision by a jury, but who knows what will happen with any of it. If you could atleast threaten them with a trial, put a little fire under their feet. I am stunned at the six months to a year. Boy, they really hope you are going to drop from the strain,stress, and pressure. My thoughts are with you....Hang in there, my typical statement, I know, but there is nothing more that you can do. My heart goes out to you. Allyson

[ribitsmom]

CRAP...I just wrote out a long reply and accidently hit a button and it wiped it out. Start over I guess...story of my life these day's.

Thanks Kirksdad and Allyson.

As for why the 6-12 months it is due to needing to go back to the drawing board. They need to do more depositions, schedule different hearings and such. Along with all this they need to be sure that all the lawyers representing 5 differnt groups can be available, clearing schedules and such, this is a pain and can take months for just that alone. We weren't scheduled for a mediation until February of '07 to begin with, the RR called for an early mediation, stating that they didn't want to put more money into investigations, and if mediation didn't work out we were looking at May of '07 for court...well, that could all be changed anyway. there is a similar trial going on now that could force us to go through Fedral court instead of the local system, if this happens (we won't know for a while) we won't see court until Fall of '08 at the earliest.

[willsmom]

I cannot even function sometimes from day to day, let alone think about something in 2007!! You sound so calm. I guess you have just settled into the idea of "whatever it takes", which in itself is quite admirable...or atleast that is the vibe I am getting...You are a good, strong, fantastic Mother, Denise, and you should be proud of yourself, and everything you are doing and have done. I hope I have the strength to see it through; as much as I hate everything about all of this for all of us, we will some day know why...not to much care in that right now, but I do admire what you are doing and how you are conducting yourself. Keep on trucking...and I think I have told you before: "When going through hell, just keep going" ~~ I need that on a t-shirt~~ You have a nice day...I have actually gotten all the BS for school DONE...clothes, supplies, all of it, and I think I will a glass of white wine on that note--Hmmmm, little early...but anyway, you hang tough and stay in touch, and f**k'em up!!!!!! WillsMom~~Allyson

[ribitsmom]

I love that song..when going through hell...I just told my husband about it the other day and he said that Churchhill was the one that said that; my thought is that my husband is a fountain of information, whodathought.

You really need to find a comfort zone, to my thinking. I don't think I am calm, I may appear calm, but have many stress symptoms that the normal person probably wouldn't notice. If I could spell them I would try, but lets just say I have lots of little bumps that come to the surface when stressed, and it is not a pimple, I think it is exima???. I also have very active bowels, just one word that sets me off and I start running to the rest room. I think it just effects us all in different ways, I need to appear calm to the family because I can't stand people fussing over me but the minute I notice my son or my husband struggle I lose it. Many others can cry for me or feel they are crying with me but I will stand strong, chin up, but the minute my husband or son slip a notch I will start bawling, because I KNOW what they are going through.

[willsmom]

Tomorrow is depo. day for the Head of Cardiology, IF he does wrangle his way out of it again. Please keep Will in your thoughts and hope the depo., is done and over with---No more delays...Laughable, I know. I gotta shower, been to the gym to get rid of some of the anxiety...worked a little. I want to hear what this doctor has to say, he has already signed an affidavit(sp)---What more do we need?? Anyway, onward and upward...Hope everyone is well, and hanging in there. Have a nice week. Allyson

[ribitsmom]

I will be thinking of you and Will. Hope this kickstarts the beginning to the end for you.

[chels1003]

Allyson, I'll be thinking of you too. The delays are such a wrench. My husband and the doctor will be deposed next week on the same day.

Some things have been brought up for me,again, and it feels like a brand new tear in my soul. It hurts no less now than the day she left.

I also have a renewed sense of anger at everything my little girl had to go through.

There is so much storming through my mind lately. And I am so frustrated about everything.

I haven't been here in a while, so caught up with work, school and my kids.

I've been thinking of everyone here and wanted to say hi and hang in there. I'm doing my best to do the same.

[willsmom]

Thanks everybody...it did occur, but I have no details other than the fact that "it went well"---I will get the gore of it late this afternoon, according to an e-mail. Atleast it went well, but it is still a disgusting thing, no matter what light you try and put it in. Will should be alive, but I know we all feel that about our children, and I cannot get on the "why me" of it or I will just be treading water all day...worthless in everything. I will tell you all what I won't do and that is sit in this house all day and wait for the call...so, I am outta here and gonna get moving, because just typing this is pulling me into an ugly place... I will be in touch..and yes, I hope this is the beginning of the end. WillsMom~~Allyson

[willsmom]

Everything went well...the Cardilogist(sp) stood his ground; I have yet to read the depo.----I feel better, except for the fact that my son, Will, suffered, or atleast I feel that way...He was such a strong baby to fight for life for 25 days...I am mad, distraught, and have become a believer in an eye for an eye....or a heart for a heart....Getting really nasty here...Help? Allyson

[ribitsmom]

Allyson, I have found...for me, that the anger can help me get through some of those really tough days. After losing a child we go through so many emotions and I wonder sometimes if the anger isn't one of the 'helpful' emotions. During the down and out, sad days we don't seem to get anything accomplished, but with our anger we can fight the fight that we need to fight.

I get so upset when I think that these lawyers wait so long to do the depositions, I wonder who is going to remember anything that happened, how would they remember the details of something that happened months ago. I also wonder if these lawyers did the deposition shortly after the loss of the child, wouldn't the person the are deposing be more 'shook up' and maybe spill more information?

[willsmom]

I am so glad you answered me. Thank-you for that. I am walking the same walk I presume you walked. I have about had it and if I ever see that bitch (OB)---I have no idea what will happen. And you are right...We have lost everything; but you are smart...and have so much knowledge....and I thank you for answering me...(again)...I am sad, I so mad, Denise---what do I do with this? How did you do it?

Bridge and Will----Wow---- did we ever think this would happen??

Lawyers suck---most of them---I really like my Fla. attorney. He is a nice man, tries hard and is a prick (when needed). I like him. Anger: I have it everday...but he does a great job....I would not trade him.

Tell me how you are??

Allyson

[ribitsmom]

Allyson - How do I do it? I have to keep myself in a place that allows me to believe that my daughters death was not intentional, she wasn't murdered, what happened was an accident, a mistake. I have come face to face with the RR and I know that they didn't kill Bridge on purpose, but by not making crossings safe, by feeling that they are all power and not having to increase safety at all intersections, they have failed. The engineer never would have been able to stop the train, even if he had seen the car a mile back, the train never would have been able to stop...I need to keep this in mind, and this way I can believe that our loss was due to stupidity on the RR part, and maybe due to pride (no one can make us do anything we don't want to do).

As for you with the loss of Will, maybe if you can tell yourself, or make yourself believe, that the DR's didn't do it on purpose, it was not murder, it was maybe too many hours on the floor, or just not seeing what was in front of them, but not intentional, it may help you get to the place that you need to be to have a little bit of peace.

When I saw the RR lawyers (which to me is the RR)I didn't freak out, I feel that I was in control and grown up about it...I wasn't sure that I would be able to do that, but I did. Now at this point, I feel as though we were played, we were brought into mediation for another purpose, not to complete this fight. So, I have a bit of anger over that.

Denise

[willsmom]

Everything you say is right Denise, but I still have trouble with the "only if's"---had this OB only read the request, maybe if I had done something more, something different...the list is pretty much endless, but it always goes back to only if that request for an echo-cardiogram would have been read, my Will would be here. I do have a blame problem, for this. Your outlook is much better than mine. I do place blame and I do feel like this was, in sorts, a murder, just because it was so sloppy and so blatant. The outsome of all of this would have been different or with 95% certain of different/survival. He would have atleast been given a chance and to live 25 days is so remarkable within itself, that I am certain he would've gotten through the corrective procedure on his heart and lived. I find the words medical malpractice and wrongful death not descriptive enough, but as far as it being done on purpose; no, I don't feel that, so murder is to strong of a word, but how can a "trained" and long-term practicing doctor be so dumb, sloppy, careless and then try and cover it all up like cat crap? I would've admitted my mistake. I would have took responsiblity head on and let the chips fall where they may...not be a lying, hiding pig. Geez, I do sound so angry and tainted, but that was/is my boy---my baby---

I admire your outlook. I hope one day I can reach that point, I just want accountability, and a private/public apology; because if you boil it down to just the nitty gritty, she did cause this situation. I was her patient for over 12 years. I trusted her, and she blew it and then blew me off. I would never know what I know now if I was not so determined to find out everything, and believe me, it has about killed me, just as I know your situation has you.

I just want to win this battle for Will, as you have for Bridge. And what an up-hill battle it is and will continue to be, but I will stand strong with spear in hand and fight for the right outcome, Will deserves that.

Long one, I know~~ I hope your weekend is kind to you and things are happy. Have a good day. And my God Bless us all. Allyson

[ribitsmom]

Allyson - you are so right, as a doctor, they should be on top of everything, should be reading all the tests, should be taking all the tests, and what really stinks is that you will probably never get the apology that you deserve. If for not other reason, an apology will admit guilt, and that will never happen.

Like in our case, if we win, we will still never see the intersection corrected, the RR will never allow it, this would be like them admitting guilt and this is not ever going to happen. The further we get into this, the less I believe it is even worth it, the hard work, the heart ache, the many years of no not being able to conclude this feeling of being in limbo...It is very difficult.

Anyway, I am thinking of you and hope the best and for a speedy end to this crap you find yourself in the midst of.

Denise

[rhonda68]

Just checking in with everyone to say hello.

Also it is ruff and the pain so raw. My younger son had his birthday yesterday he turned 17. It seems when all these special occasions occur I get so stressed and can hardly deal with myself. But I made it through the day taking him and his friend to the go carts to do a few laps and then had a few of his friends over for a weiner roast and cake. The pain of missing my son is so hurtful it actually feels like I am having a heartattack or something.

Also the anger over my sons death always comes in spells and I am so mad. I was treated so unfairly by the law and the ex and his family. First of all I never ever recieved an explanation from police I just got a stupid call in the middle of the night from my ex sister in law telling me she had bad news "Richards been killed" BAD NEWS more than bad news and more than I could handle. The boy I raised all his life,he had just moved up there to work and was home on weekends. His father was never in the picture and they just thought they should take over and not even tell law enforcement that he had a mother. Also they only gave me what they wanted of Richards and I should have been the one too go through his things as I truly was next of kin. I have the full custody of him and his brother. The ex people never helped with a dime for the funeral or arrangements. They always just want the spotlight they are SICK people. Angry yes very!!!

Richards Mom - Can't wait to see you again son!!!

[willsmom]

Hi Rhonda:

First let me say I am sorry for your loss and heart-break, but you do have rights. You have the right to have his things, you have the right to a police report, you have the right to try and get you ex to pay half of the funeral.

I understand your anger, and I explode at times myself...and you're right it comes out of nowhere. I would just try to seek help, you sound like you maybe on the verge of panic attacks, I suffer from them still. I can only offer you an ear and advice and friendship. You need to assert your rights for your own well-being. I wish you an easy evening and a peaceful day tomorrow. Take Care. WillsMom

[willsmom]

I guess eveyone is quiet...thouhgt I would post and just check in and say hello. Things are not good here, I feel divorce is possible, if not a fact. I am tired of being called "stupid" and treated like **** when I have worked so hard.

I am contacting my attorney that deals with case on Monday, if not tomorrow. I just cannot take it anymore. WillsMom

[ribitsmom]

Allyson, I am so sorry to hear that things are not going well; I am sure that sounds like such an under statement to you at this point.

Losing a child is so damn hard on a marriage, I am not sure of your marrital issues, but would assume that the loss of Will plays a part in your conflicts. Have you looked into talking to someone that specializes in marriage counseling? or grief counseling? I guess what I am asking and hoping is that you have explored all options prior to opting for divorce?/??

My thoughts are with you and know that you will do the best thing for you.

Denise

[kirksdad]

Willsmom, I am sorry that things are going in that direction, but you have to do what is good for you and being in an abusive relationship is not a good thing. Life is too short, something we all know about, to put up with other peoples crap even when it is in the family.

[chels1003]

Allyson, I haven’t been online much because I haven’t had internet service in a few months. I check in as often as I can. You’re talking divorce. It’s a big deal…My husband and I are going through a lot right now. We spent a great deal of time being so supportive of each other….When Kris was here and probably for a little over a year after she was gone….

lately it’s a lot of insanity….he hates me…I hate him…he tells me he’s only here for the kids…..I’m hoping he’ll just go away and never come back.

He makes a big issue of Kait eating her 2nd or 3rd plate of food, forgetting Kait is not Kris. Kait is not starving herself….Kris did….Kait is now grossly overweight….She is eating, and he can’t see it…Kait eats and eats to compensate for her sister who is no longer here…Kait will eat until she can’t take another bite…so full she feels like she’s going to puke. I tell her she is not allowed to eat after her belly is full. Kait will eat beyond what is healthy…I fight it….My husband is still fighting a battle with a child that is still here against a child we will never have here with us again.

It is a mess. He can’t let go. I hate him for it….

I’m not sure what to say other than I always thought my husband and I had what it took to beat the odds…

We cannot adjust…We fight and fight and fight now….I resent him, he resents me…we work things out, it doesn’t work anymore….It works…it doesn’t work…It’s a nightmare…We say very horrible things to each other. .

After my deposition, I caught hell for falling apart emotionally…he was pissed that I felt “sorry for myself” since Kris never felt sorry for herself, it’s not about me it’s about her. Pull it together; stop whining….

After his deposition a couple weeks ago he lost it…he felt like he had been torn from the inside out…reliving. He was crying, sobbing, could barely breathe….all I wanted to say to him was how dare you….pull it together…stop whining and feeling sorry for yourself……breathe you jerk…It hurt you no less than it hurt me…**** you , **** you and **** you harder…who do you think you are?

We were both there for it all do you think it hurt you more than it hurt me????

I’m telling the honest ugly truth….we hold it together to be that one of the few who seem to do so on the outside….we don’t want to be the “couple” that can’t get through this….in the inner, real side of it all…I don’t know….Once Kris was gone, all was there for the funeral…now it’s more or less get on with it, everyone has problems and we’re all tired of the 2 of you…

Well it happens that the “two” of us is really the four of us and we have been on our own struggling, stumbling and not knowing how to move on since it was once the five of us…..Five minus one equals misery.

[ribitsmom]

I was going to post a very long reply with information that gave all types of statistics, then decided I should look up some information first; this is what I found:

The issue of divorce after the death of a child really pushes my hot button, because it is such a dangerous and destructive (and mis-managed) statistic. I have been trying for a number of years to find ANY kind of a study that would establish that statistical percentage reliably in either direction, but none has been done. Some of our professional department editors in the magazine have researched university and medical libraries up and down both the east and west coast without any success. I have encouraged many aspiring Ph.D. candidates to make it a study for their dissertations, but so far nobody has done anything definitive about it.

The original "percentage" came from the book, The Bereaved Parent, by Harriet Schiff in the late sixties. Harriet is a bereaved parent and was a journalist for the Detroit Free Press and she never meant that statistic to be considered as a reliable scientific study number -- she was trying to make the point in her book that the death of a child creates a stressor in marriages and that families need extra support and attention after the death of a child because men and women grieve differently.

Since then many speakers and writers have seized upon the opportunity to create drama by quoting amazing statistics that range anywhere from 75% to 95% -- depending on the speaker and his or her mood and need for audience gasps!

In my eleven years of support group leadership for The Compassionate Friends in Indianapolis, we saw only two divorces in all that time -- and one couple got back together again. As a result of our history, I asked around with other chapter leaders around the country to see if we were somehow unique or if their patterns were similar. It turned out they were not seeing a high divorce rate either. The empirical evidence suggests that in families where there is ANY kind of support system at all -- such as extended family, church, even the bridge club, there was a minimal breakup of marriages. The support did not necessarily have to come from a "formal" support group, although that is ideal. Where there was NO support system at all, the marriage breakup appeared to be somewhat higher.

What is important to understand is that men and women grieve differently and their differences need to be respected and accommodated. They do not need to be alarmed by the additional "fear tactic" that their marriage is suddenly doomed to failure because their child died. This is not powerful enough to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it is an additional and unnecessary stress at a time when what parents need is comfort and peace -- not irresponsible and unsubstantiated "dramatic effect."

This unreliable information has seeped into so many writings and speeches, that even the professional community has absorbed it without questioning it appropriately, and they will often mindlessly quote the dumb statistical percentages. I have even heard radio psychologists say this on the air!

There is a crying need for a real, genuinely well-done survey that will provide accurate data and put a stop to this generalizing once and for all!

Best regards,

Andrea Gambill

owner and editor, Bereavement Magazine

Bereavement Publishing, Inc.

I was under the impression that divorce was statisticly high after the loss of a child...now I don't think I believe that. What I do know is that we each grieve differently and need to understand that our spouse is not going to understand the way we grieve and we will not understand the way our spouse grieves. This can cause stress (even more stress) in a marriage. What we need to do is understand that our spouse is hurting just as badly as we are, they are just showing it in a different way...of course, maybe they are dealing with it in the same way (name calling, blaming and other things that are hurtful)both spouses need to rethink how they are grieving and try to make an effort to grieve in a healthy way. If there are other children in the family, the "unhealthy" grieving can not be good for them either.

Sorry, so long and very opinionated.

Denise

[chels1003]

Denise, thanks for the long post. after posting last night...it opened my eyes about what I've been holding in for such a long time and need to either get on the ball...or keep crying in my soup. which has been the problem so far. this can't keep going on. The grief is still the main issue, and the lack of control over the entire time my daughter was ill...how it ran it's course no matter how hard I prayed...it makes me crazy....

Thanks for the article...and I think it's right about the over rated stats...but I have to say....it is hard and there is so much to sift through and get over once the damage has been done...hurtful words and destructive behavior. No matter how much love is still there.

[willsmom]

Hey Denise and Chels: Everything you both said was interesting and thought provoking. I have only "heard" that the divorce rate is usually anywhere from 50/50 to 80/20 (in favor of divorce) it is wild to know that noone has ever really done a nation wide study. I can honestly tell you, I would think it would be high.

As far as my situation, it remains the same. He just told me to get over it this morning and that I am letting it ruin my life. I simply said, we should have a two year old running around and we don't~~He just shrugged~~ He said he dreams of Will and his Dad alot. Hell, you would never know it. The man is emotionless. All he does is drink, scuba dive, fish, and bascially act like he is 20. He is not a hands on Dad with my living sons', and he sucks as a husband. Wht do I stay? I have no idea. We dated from high school on and I guess I am just growing indifferent to his indifference...I just need to make up my mind and get on with it. I really don't think it would bother him one way or the other, even though he pleads for me to stay and work on things. YUCK--I don't care enough anymore. Everything hangs by a mere thread; plus there are my boys to think of. I am just treading water.

Hope all is well with everyone here. My case is still on-going. And Will's birthday is Sept. 13th and his death day is Oct. 7th---so you know what kind of emotional turmoil I am in, and back on meds to boot. Isn't our "new existences" alot of fun? No, don't think so...Better go~~WillsMom~~Allyson

[willsmom]

Hey Denise and Chels: Everything you both said was interesting and thought provoking. I have only "heard" that the divorce rate is usually anywhere from 50/50 to 80/20 (in favor of divorce) it is wild to know that noone has ever really done a nation wide study. I can honestly tell you, I would think it would be high.

As far as my situation, it remains the same. He just told me to get over it this morning and that I am letting it ruin my life. I simply said, we should have a two year old running around and we don't~~He just shrugged~~ He said he dreams of Will and his Dad alot. Hell, you would never know it. The man is emotionless. All he does is drink, scuba dive, fish, and bascially act like he is 20. He is not a hands on Dad with my living sons', and he sucks as a husband. Wht do I stay? I have no idea. We dated from high school on and I guess I am just growing indifferent to his indifference...I just need to make up my mind and get on with it. I really don't think it would bother him one way or the other, even though he pleads for me to stay and work on things. YUCK--I don't care enough anymore. Everything hangs by a mere thread; plus there are my boys to think of. I am just treading water.

Hope all is well with everyone here. My case is still on-going. And Will's birthday is Sept. 13th and his death day is Oct. 7th---so you know what kind of emotional turmoil I am in, and back on meds to boot. Isn't our "new existences" alot of fun? No, don't think so...Better go~~WillsMom~~Allyson

[ribitsmom]

I am so sorry for both chels1003 and Wills mom, the both of you do not need to be going through this after everything else you have had to endure. I wish so badly that I could come up with something clever to say, something that would be of help...but for the life of me, I can't think of anything that would be helpful.

Chels1003, at the very end of your post you stated, "No matter how much love is still there", which leads me to believe that there is hope. And Allyson, you have been together since high school, I would assume that there is/was something there that has kept you together for so long.

I sound as though I am promoting staying in a relationship that you are trying to leave...maybe I am, but not for any reason other than that I would hate the terrible loss of your child to cause even more loss. If there is love in the marriage, then there is something worth fighting for. Then again, if there is abuse...get out now.

I think the reason I am so strongly against divorce is because I KNOW that I would not have survived this if I didn't have my husband with me...of course with the amount of travel he does, he was with me when I needed him and gone a large portion of the time, so we didn't have the luxury of fighting; each moment we were together was very special.

I hope that things work out for the both of you in the best possible way.

[chels1003]

Allyson, I would not want any woman to be somewhere they were not happy. Which is why I’ve found myself looking for apartments I can afford on my own at times when I feel like I don’t want to deal with another married day. I get so resentful yet I also feel guilty feeling the way I do…then go right back around again. After my post, although the things I wrote were how I felt, I felt like I was betraying my marriage by being so open. Funny thing is, my husband came home from work later that same night and pretty much said, this is where he wants to be although he doesn’t know why anymore. What has been unraveling for the past few months is really ugly…something we always said we’d never let happen, let the “sun set on our anger” but we do it again and again and again…night after night for months now. It’s not ugly in the sense that it’s physically abusive…just that we’ve removed ourselves from one another.

Denise, this where what you posted hit me very direct…he and I at some point awhile ago, stopped being the best friends we once were and became wrapped up into our own feelings of not understanding one another which has been manifesting since then. It grows and the more it does, the more it seems harder to even conceive we can build that trust and friendship back to where it used to be. We’ve been best friends since Jr. high. And my husband, he always takes pride in this, is being always told how much his children look like him. My children are not his biological children. He has just always loved them. He was there in the hospital with me the day Kris was born…in the end he was here when she took her last breath.

It is true, and I now it know it for what it is, we are both grieving the loss of one child in very different ways…It was easier to simply believe he was being selfish.

Allyson, my original intent when I started off in my first post by saying divorce is a big deal, before all the crap I was sweeping under the rug came up, is to say what I am now. Only you know what is best for you and your living sons. Only you can and decide what is best for you now. My husband and I have been talking about how things will be if we can’t get through this for months now. My son is aware of it. When he finally caught on and understood, he was very upset, he could barely catch his breath…I’m not ever going to forget it. He kept saying “oh god can’t you guys just work this out?” after over hearing…. taking in deep breaths of air as though oxygen no longer existed…I felt horrendous…that he had to know at all. Another reminder that his innocence is lost forever. He had to say goodbye to his big sister, his best friend in this world before he was ready…after spending nearly a month waking up with nightmares of trying to save her life and not being able to….to watching us fall apart on top of it…..I guess I know my husband and I are still together because there is still a bond although we can’t seem to find it right now…

And where I need to stop pause and reflect on what Kris kept telling me over and over and over again when she saw me getting angry…that this is no one’s fault, no one knew this was going to happen.

Even still, trying to pick up where we so desparately wanted to end…this is simply a bad dream and we’ll all wake up soon.

Not going to happen…

We are going to have to move on…I’m hoping we don’t do all the wrong things for what we think are the right reasons. And spend another lifetime trying to reconcile that on top of everything else. I’m in no shape to give advice and am not trying to…just trying to figure out where to head on from here.

[foreverchanged]

Sorry it has been so long since I have posted. I do stop in and read, but don't always post. Just got through my son's birthday and his death date is coming soon.

I wanted to say that it has been almost six years since I lost my son. My marriage has been through the grinder, too.

What I have found for my situation is that "pain" is all my husband and I have in common most of the time. Our past together resurrects memories that are bittersweet. We can think on how things were before when we had our entire family. We can think on how our future will be without our son in it and that is painful, too. The present certainly sucks because we are just trying to make it through the day.

Sometimes it seems we merely grunt at each other and other times we are okay. I do know that we grieve different and it makes me angry. Yet, if he came and told me that I should be grieving his way, I'd be more angry.

I have thought about divorce. You know, just cutting the tie and moving on. But, I can't. We do have a daughter together and I know that my son is in Heaven cheering us on and disappointed in how we treat each other. That is one motivating factor for me. I know that my son would not want to ever feel that he was the cause of our family breaking up. I know that sounds strange. Of course he wouldn't be the cause . . . but his absence be the cause or our inability to cope with his absence. Does that make sense?

I can say that losing my son has aged me. I feel like I have turned into an old woman while my husband seems to get more juvenile with each passing day. Granted, he is not abusive toward me . . . but he can be hard to live with. We do fight and all that and it bothers our daughter. I guess to sum it up we are just two wounded soldiers laying on the battlefeed and neither of us can comfort the other. I think that is where a lot of the resentment and anger comes from. After being with this man through the death of a child I think he should be the last person on Earth who would ever hurt me . . . and when he does I can feel another brick going up in the wall.

All I know is it is a process. Each couple is different and what gets one couple through the day may not work for another. For us, we are just trying to keep our heads above water and hold it together. I do know we love each other. When you lose a child everything changes. We change. We are different people and have become a different couple. We just don't know who that is, yet.

[griffinsmom]

Another Brick in the Wall- so , so true. Your post is so true. A nail on the head reading for me- glad you posted! We are all- Foreverchanged

[willsmom]

Wow guys,I cannot even begin to cover all of this. I am so messed up over Will's birthday (13th) coming, I cannot cover all of this. I feel stupid for not being able too; but my mind is just not functioning.

I get everything everyone is saying, and I totally relate to all of it, but as far as giving a normal, smart, coherent answer...No, I can't.

I am still unhappy, still searching; as we all are, but I am just wiped. I am back waking up in the night thinking that it is the afternoon and vice-versa. I think I am going to flip the **** out, and cannot tell anyone. Does anyone get it? No. I am just trying; trying to live. Everyone said the 2nd year is worse, and so far it is. I went to Will's the morning after the boys went to school and the man mowing the grass, just stopped. I was stunned. I just told Will, I would be back, and he just tipped his hat at me, which felt like a dagger.

I am sorry, we were all on husbands and family...I thought this so, I am going to type it---------What family? A missing member is beyond any words I can say.I could careless about my marriage, he sucks, so what? What does not suck? I will go...just checking in---and boy, is it positive--LOL.

As far as the case goes, I remain in FIGHT mode. Allyson~~Willsmom

P.S.--Sorry

[chels1003]

Forever, you are right. Loss does change us.

This talk of marriage and relationships has been good for me. I portrayed my side of my relationship out of frustration, anger and helplessness for a situation neither of us had control over. How would he feel if he read my words? hurt, upset, confused, angry and as spiteful. In saying that much.....I miss the past. Our past, the past in which all of us were here. Things were great then, even when things were bad it was all still good because we were all here. I can’t have it back. I will never know any of those days again.

Allyson, I’m going on my third year missing Kris in a horrible way. I still feel half crazy and out of my mind. Ready to jump out of my own skin at any second. Every emotion is still so intense. Raw.

Kristian’s birthday is coming up soon as well. I know how hard it is. So is my son’s. He is a stronger person that I. He spent her last month with us begging us to let him pack his bags and travel the world over to find a way to save her. As we speak, I am looking at one of the extra locks we had to put on our back door because he tried to leave in the middle of the night, there is one of the same locks on the front as well. He was only 9 at the time and willing to give any and all of his life to save his sister. He begged us to let him go.

I think of him and then of myself. Of all the times I’ve drowned, medicated and extinguished any feeling I still have…I think of him…9 going on 12 in a short time. Kris was his best friend, his big sister. His mentor and idol. She held on one more day for him and I look at him, he can’t take xanex, drink a beer, skip school, or even express half the grief he feels that I do here on this site to anyone.

He is only 11. He asked my husband and I to stop fighting and pull it together…He has a better grasp on life than we do right now.

[ribitsmom]

chels1003...I can't tell you how much your post touched me. For one thing, I have thought often of what another would think if they read my posts...it would be very easy for anyone and everyone to know who I am, the screen name alone would give that away, not to mention my name and my daughters name. I have always tried to be very careful in not showing too much grief, not insulting anyone that we know that may come across this thread, making sure that my son and husband both know that I love them and that I may not understand the way they grieve, but that I do understand that they are grieving just as strongly as I am.

You should be very proud of your son, I am sure that he is confused and lost also, and he sounds like such a wonderful boy, just reading your post I want to hug him until he squeeks.

With my son, after the accident, he became much quieter, less argumentitive, tried to become the perfect child, and I hate that he feels that he needed to do that. I don't know that he even realizes that he did. Don't get me wrong, I love the mature man (he is almost 20) that has come from this loss, he is so likable, so mature that it is hard to believe that it is the same person. Much of this could just be that he is 3 years older and these changes would have happened anyway...we'll never know.

Most of the pain that I feel now is for the "what could have been's", for my son and for my husband. To know that they are hurting, will continue to hurt for the rest of their lives; my son will never have his sister to confide in, to share the years ahead with. My husband will never be able to hold grandchildren from our daughter, which I know for certain he wanted. These things I will miss too, but it hurts me more to know that they will hurt from these things...to see the pain in someone else is more difficult to me than my own pain.

[chels1003]

Allyson, I’m sorry for writing so much, but I came here tonight thinking of you and Will’s birthday tomorrow. Please don’t feel like you need to read everything, I know how hard it is for you today, tomorrow and probably for some time after. I understand you are going through so much right now and am only hoping something I’m dealing with right now will help you understand you are not alone.

Thanks Ribitsmom, for telling me about your son. I do feel that way about Jonny. Our kids have to grow up so fast, dealing with loss. My youngest daughter was no where near as close to Kris as my son, but in that last month, Kris brought her closer and made her a part of what she and Jonny already where.

I have had a hard time in the last few years accepting all that has happened. I am also exhausted from being so angry for such a long time. I started screaming and yelling, literally, the night Kris was diagnosed Jan. 2, 2003. I don’t think I’ve stopped, whether it be still yelling out loud, in what I write, things I do, decisions I make, things I simply say.

A strange new doctor took my hand that night in the hospital, in advance of telling me the “bad news”. I could have spit fire in his face and burnt him to a crisp with a single breath for finding the cancerous mass I know should have been found so much sooner than that single night. He made a note of that. It’s in the medical records and probably why I was asked if I had any negative things to say about the doctor during my depo.

All the things she had to endure just kept running and running and running through my mind. I don’t think I’ve let up on the hate in my soul for a single second since then. For every tear she cried before that night because she couldn’t understand why she was so “different” for so long, why she didn’t feel good like her friends at school, us at home, in all that time.

I too worry about who comes here to read these posts. But I realize, I’m not doing anything now that I wasn’t doing then. I’m actually doing it a whole lot nicer today vs. a few years ago.

The difference today is I understand I have to start letting this anger go. I have to or I will waste away into a person I would not ever want to be. I have to do this for myself and for Kris. For my living children and my husband. I have to accept and forgive the doctor(s) involved in her care before her diagnosis, no matter how negligently, ignorantly, unethically and immorally they dismissed her obvious symptoms of brain cancer so carelessly. Typing that sound absolutely ridiculous to me. Yet it is what I have to do to get through this.

Without a doubt, they will be held accountable. I have a great notion that they will do so of their own accord, no matter how our case is decided. Kristian will see to it. One doctor will die knowing he sent a child dying of a brain tumor for nearly 2 years to an agonizing death by diagnosing her with migraines, emotional and behavioral issues, then laughably enough, after all else failed and reassured me that we “weren’t looking at a brain tumor here” December 26th 2005, after this brain tumor had nearly wasted her precious, beautiful and perfect body to nearly nothing for 2 years, a “detached retina”. Along with many other horrible symptoms blatantly dismissed. I could scream an eternity for the injustice. I could wish horrible, countless, painful deaths upon deaths to this man. Over and over and over again. And it still wouldn’t grant me one moments peace. Or one full nights sleep for so long as I live.

Whether his insurance will pay out 50 cents or millions, all I want for him is to lose the sleep I have. I want him to doubt his very reason for living. Each and every day. I want him think of Kris every day for each and every day he has left to live on this earth. To regret not sending her for the catscans he so often discussed many months prior to her diagnosis, yet did NOT. I want him to suffer as she did. To starve and waste away, to feel her pain. And to ultimately remember that I will be in my own corner of the world saying, no, you’re not starving, not feeling pain, you’re body is not in chaos, it is only your imagination. You may simply be dying, but, you know, for the sake of saving a dollar, it’s best you die silently rather than make me do my job and raise a stink over it. perhaps it is just your life, but oh my the work that goes into caring just a little.

At that, all he could offer my precious baby girl after a competent doctor gave her the catscan he kept refusing, for said “detached retina”, after being blind for days, was a mere signature for a “family medical leave act”. The owner of the company I work for had already offered me anything I could ever need financially and emotionally before the doctor offered his stale, stagnant and useless signature. Not only did she offer, but she followed through with every promise to see our family through this. No other company would do such a thing. I hope he forever feels inadequate as a father and a doctor for that alone.

Kristian’s life and peace of mind is priceless. There is no amount of money in this world that will bring her back to me. It is all I want. I’d give my life to hear her sweet voice “pinky swear” me one more time.

I have no desire in my heart to forgive them. The arrogant doctors. I need to remember I am doing this for a larger cause. The love of my family. If from this point on, I were to do nothing more but eat out of dumpsters and raise a fuss every chance I was able, for Kris’ sake, I would die with more dignity than the medical community which failed her.

[willsmom]

I had to do my middle son's birthday today and I have to say I did well; until my mother in law said: " You will live through tomorrow"----Yes, I probably will, do I want to???? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I am just mad, and have had a few beers; but who says that? I would never say that to you guys.

I would say I am here, vent, scream, call me...anything. It is hard to have the birthdays' one day apart, it is hard to order a cake, it is hard to smile for pictures....Am I a bitch? I love my middle boy (Ryan, for those who do not know}---but ****, I am sad....she should have let me continue on with the farce. I am just sad....Sad for what will never be.

The birthday boy never said a word about Will, and I wanted it like that....it is HIS birthday....Geez, I feel crazy. It was Ryan's day. Am I nutts??????????

WillsMom~~Allyson

[joshsmom]

Will's Mom,

I just had to post and just send you a big hug! I thought having my son's birthday's 2 weeks apart was hard! But a day! I commend you for allowing Ryan to have his "Special Day", knowing in your heart, that today would have to come!

People are just so "out of it"! They don't get it and they unfortunately probably, never will!

We have to learn to just listen to the words we want to hear and let all the hurtful ones pass us by! It's sad because most of the time, when someone says something like this to us, they most likely think it's the right thing to say! They don't even realize that alot of the time these words are more hurtful than they are helpful!

I have found that not saying anything is sometimes the best thing! Just to be there and let me know that I can talk about Josh and they will just listen to me. I love to talk about my son, and my true freinds and some family members have enough sense to just allow me to do this!

I am sending you good thoughts for today and just wanted you to know that I am here. Even though I don't post as often, I still come here and stay connected by reading the posts!

Please know that I understand!

Take care,

Josh's Mom

Josh's 19th birthday was August 30th, he passed at 16 yrs old and this is the third birthday we have had to get through, without him! He would be now, the same age his older brother was, when Josh passed! My older son, Eric will be 22 yrs. Old on Friday, Sept. 15th. We want him to know how much he is loved and will celebrate his birthday with him. (But our thoughts will be on Josh also and knowing that he isn't here with us!) That just really sucks!

Eric has had to grow up fast these last 2 years! It's so unfair! We should all be together!

I live for my family now, I have to!

[willsmom]

Hey all--Got the news a few days ago---Looks like we are headed for mediation. Anyone (I know, you've done it Denise--so help me, please) that has a clue, please pass it along, you know what to expect...just the general BS would be great.

And thank-you Joshsmom for all your kind words, they mean alot...and I do agree with you 100%~~We live for our living family now. Stay in touch.

WillsMom~~Allyson

[ribitsmom]

Allyson, if your mediation is anything like mine, expect a very long, boring, non-productive day. In fact, it can go on for more than one day. We had 4 families involved in Mediation, so probably a bit different than yours, but it was extremely boring, lasted for more than 12 hours and we accomplished absolutely nothing...we go to court now. Of course, it is possible that during this time between mediation and prepping for court one of the sides will decide that we try another mediation, but I am not sure that I will jump at the opportunity. The opposing side came in with an offer that wouldn't have even covered expenses...it was a slap in the face.

My suggesion to you, (I need to put my glasses on, I can't see what I am typing) is to talk to your lawyer and ask for a detailed list of where you stand as far as expenses are concerned, because this comes off the top of whatever you settle for, then your lawyer will get his/her 33% or 40%, whatever you agreed on. So, if you settle for 1,000,000 and your lawyer gets 40%, that leaves you with 600,000, if you have $100,000 in expenses then you are left with $500,000, I would assume that your lawyer suggested that you put money into a trust for your surviving children, this will leave you with an even smaller amount.

Also, keep in mind...if he is starting negotiations at lets say $3,000,000 the opposing side will come back with something like $40,000 to begin and you may end up settling for $500,000 when you thought you were shooting for $3M.

These numbers are all just fictional, I have no idea what you are looking at as far as numbers are concerned, but prepare yourself for not coming out of it with what you are expecting.

My husband and I discussed it prior to going into mediation and said that we would NOT settle for anything less than ****; not that this mattered, we never got anywhere close to what we agreed on.

I hope the best for you and hope that mediation is quick and painless (or as painless as possible).

Another thing, you are probably expecting to go into mediation and have a cry fest, non stop crying all day...it wasn't like that for us at all; I did break down and cry, once, and this was when I was listening to my hubby tell the mediator his feelings...otherwise, it is just a very boring day, other than anger; be sure to plan for the MAD that will come, because they are going to offer some very low ball number and this will piss you off.

Denise

[willsmom]

Gosh Denise, to be very honest with you there has never even been a dollar amount put on this. I know, or think I know that have to reimburse insurance...true or false? When I spoke with my attorney he stated he was in it already for a large amount of money, his own, which I found odd, but as I have said to you before, this is all bullshit to me, they could offer me a trillion dollars and nothing makes it worth it...just the fact this supposed "OB" gets her due.

Why are you guys going to trial? Is it due to the other families involved or is it just the way mediation went? I have to deal with these fuckers (excuse, me) one on one, AND I have to be present, which is so disgusting to me. I mean, the thought of bartering with a bunch of guilty pigs, who know they are guilty; bugs the **** out me. BE A HUMAN AND ADMIT IT~~~Don't hide, don't lie...Have the morals, the ethics, the decency to admit fault---Suck it up. I would have been admitting fault and explaining a LONG time ago, and I would have accepted whatever happened to me...Lying does nothing, but enrage me...that is why I am doing this: She basically killed my son with her sloppy, shitty ways. He should be here.

Sorry, just sounding off, but that is how I feel, so mediation means nothing, but a bunch of low ball bullshit for the life of a human being? Boy, oh, boy are they in for a shock. I haven't run from this and will not. Your post just shows how crazy it all is...Let me know what you think...I guess I should talk numbers with my attorneys, but it makes me sick---literally. I will await your reply...A million thank-you's---Allyson

[ribitsmom]

Allyson...I will answer the question about why we are going to court first. Mediation turned into a laugh, do we plan to get money out of it? YES!!! Is it because we are money hungrey? NO! It is because this accident is WRONG, it never should have happened, we had a precious life taken from us, from my son, from the grandparents, from all of the kids at the highschool that had a friend taken from them. In fact, there were four lives taken that night. So, we will have our day in court and we will go for as much as we can get, because we have big plans for the money...NO, we are not buying big cars (we already have them), we are not buying houses (we already have that too), we are not going to travel (we do more of that than we want now)...I want to buy land in town and dedicate a park in the kids name, I want to fight to make all crossings safe...all of this takes money that we don't earn...we make a very nice living, but we are not millionares. As I said, the children left behind are entitled to $$ also, in fact, if you do the calculations the way the lawfirms do, the children left behind are entitled to more money than the parents, because they will be missing more years with the child that is lost vs the parents, due to our age, that is how our state configures the amount anyway. Grandparents are also entitled to a portion of the suit as next of kin.

As for not talking to your lawyer about money, I really feel that you are going in blind, I promise you that your lawyer has a $$ amount that he is thinking of. You are also going to be responsible for the expenses that he has accumulated during this process, this will come off the top of whatever you are awarded. So, lets say you are awarded $100,000 and your lawyer gets 40% (to make it easy)and you have $50,000 in expenses...that will leave you with $10,000....I guess I don't feel that that is much of a statement being made at the end of the day, other than the lawyer making quite a bit of money.

What we have had to do, to preserve our sanity is look at this from a business angle, try as hard as we can to take as much emotion out as possible, I can tell you that it just does not work as easily as I just made it sound, we are so wripped up inside about this, but if we go in full of grief then our minds are not going to work the way they will need to when it comes time to negotiate. It sounds cold, but we have been going through this for 3 years this month (on Sept 26th) and it has been a very long and drawn out affair, and we still have another year at least to go. If nothing else, we need to continue with our lives because Bridgette would be dissapointed if we fell into a pit of grief and didn't find our way out; so we find the mad in us and we find what we are good at, the business angle and we go with it.

Denise

[willsmom]

Hey Denise, I hear and agree with everything you say, anyone who would enter into what we have entered into for money would be a fool. Hell, I rarely base people on their income anyway. All that matters is life. Money is nothing but a concept, and besides that I would have to be Julia Roberts making 20 million a picture, before I ever gave much thought to it.

I think the park is an awesome idea, if we win I plan on giving it to Will's brother's...I know Will would love that. Other than that I have not thought much on it. I mean, ****, we could lose, but I feel I have already won the major battle~~the bitch is out of OB, and I know WHY my son died, so I am satisfied in that aspect of it, but I still would like to open a can of whoop ass on her...LOL~~Just kidding. Better run, football to go to, and crowds to deal with---YUCK---I may just stay home and sit by the pool and have few...try and shut it all down for awhile...Stay in touch, and keep your chin up!!! Allyson

[Guest Guest]

I see that there are some posts here about the precription Methedone (pill form). I was wondering ifany of you have seen the report on 20/20 last night, the segment was called "one pill can kill." It spoke about the devistation pres methedone is causing. It is very cheap, so drug dealers are making a quick buck, the insurance companys push it b/c it is cheap, and doctors do not know how to prescribe it. Basically they prescribe for little things like head or tooth aches, but you could die after taking one pill. The victims 1. die in their sleep 2. snore loudly (sign of meth poisoning).

I did not know these things. My brother passed away with the same symptoms of death, but we could not blame it all on the meth b/c he was taking many prescriptions at the time (pres-drug addict). We do know he DID take Methedone as prescribed.

There should be a class action suit against the maker of this drug. If I could recall there are no warnings of sudden death on bottle. Go to abc.com website and read the article "one pill could kill" September 22, 2005

[willsmom]

ATTENTION ALL: October 15th is National pregnancy and child loss day, please visit the website and purchase a few things...I went a little nutty, but I am so pleased the bill was passed...The website is www.October15th.com----

[chels1003]

Hi all, I hope everyone is doing well. I went a little overboard last time I posted and I truly apologize if anyone felt I was trying to monopolize. It was not my intention. Not at all. Emotions suck for me because they get the better of me. whether I like it or not.

Our trial is set for May 21rst. I cannot wait. Just wondering if I am kidding myself. I am already more than angry this is only a civil suit, not criminal. The death of any child from the negligence and ignorance of another should be criminally prosecuted. Yet higher powers that be protect the arrogant, ignorant and negligent. It seethes me.

I wish Kris were here to defend herself against the opposing lawyers right now. Their spewing, untruthful vomit in a vain attempt to save their client(s) ... Kris would have plenty to say in her defense...

Kristian would be 13 tomorrow.

I miss her dearly.

[willsmom]

Chels, never worry about spouting off to much, I surely did not take it that way at all, and I seriously doubt anyone else did either.

I hope tomorrow is easy for you; the days leading up to the actual day seem more difficult than the actual day, but it all is awful, anyway you look/feel about it. Please know I wish Kris a Happy Birthday and will think about you tomorrow. Will's 2nd birthday is on Oct. 7th~~so you and I are pretty much in the same boat, on dates anyway.

I am glad you have a trial date, and just ignore all the mud-slinging...it is just a desperate and dirty attempt to throw people off and not have them focus on the task at hand, typical lawyer BS...I wish you luck, and a kind day tomorrow. WillsMom