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questions of faith...


k8smum

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i need to ask a question. we are all struggling to survive without our children. it is a devastation that we had to lose our children before our own lives.

but why is god always praised but never blamed? why does he get to go thru the universe guiding supposedly but never having to take responsibility for our losses? why are we supposed to accept there is some great plan for the universe that necessitated the death of children?? the idea that god needs our children to become is angels is not biblically sound.

i don't mean to start a big theological discussion. i respect everyone's faith and am grateful we can find comfort where we can. but i take responsibility for my failings and mistakes; why not god?? while he may have lost a son, he never carried him under his heart, tucked him into bed or sang him songs to scare away the thunder.

i have an anglican/catholic background but have walked a different path after 5 yrs of watching children die of various cancers.

again, my intend is not to disparage anyone's faith. i just am seeking answers to questions that i asked myself in the green glow of cait's IV machines while watching her sleep.

annie

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[user=18746]k8smum[/user] wrote:

i need to ask a question. we are all struggling to survive without our children. it is a devastation that we had to lose our children before our own lives.

but why is god always praised but never blamed? why does he get to go thru the universe guiding supposedly but never having to take responsibility for our losses? why are we supposed to accept there is some great plan for the universe that necessitated the death of children?? the idea that god needs our children to become is angels is not biblically sound.

i don't mean to start a big theological discussion. i respect everyone's faith and am grateful we can find comfort where we can. but i take responsibility for my failings and mistakes; why not god?? while he may have lost a son, he never carried him under his heart, tucked him into bed or sang him songs to scare away the thunder.

i have an anglican/catholic background but have walked a different path after 5 yrs of watching children die of various cancers.

again, my intend is not to disparage anyone's faith. i just am seeking answers to questions that i asked myself in the green glow of cait's IV machines while watching her sleep.

annie

annie,

I don't want a whole debate, but as with everything since Micheals death I have questions that never seem to have answers.  My concern with the whole thing is there is so much said about seeing our children in heaven.  I never understood what the criteria was to gain entry into heaven. I don't know if my son is in heaven and if he is how will I know if I will be allowed in.....I know its starts with believing, but what if that belief never came to fruition??

I live my life with a primary focus of do unto others, but I will admit to some unkind words and even acts in my life.......

watching your child slowly being taken from you with no rhyme or reason is  cruel beyond belief.

Take care...

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trudi,

well that's part of it, isn't it? whose rules are used for getting into heaven?

i have the same problem with miracles: why is one worthy of a miracle but another not? and why are we supposed to just accept this? this also goes to my core question: when something good happens it is a miracle and god is praised. when something terrible happens he is left blameless. i do not see how we can have it both ways.

i have tried to live my life leaving the least harm in my wake. i have failed, miserably at times. but you and i own up to it. it seems only fair that god do the same...

take care.

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If you are basing things on the Bible it is not accurate that our children become angels.  Angels are a completely different type of being.  Our children are still human created in God's image but in perfected sinless bodies. 

My intention is not to offend anyone here but these are some of my thoughts on this topic.   I Believe the Bible is true so that is where all my presuppositions lay.

For me I really do believe that "all thing work together for the good of those that are called according to God's purposes", but we don't and can't understand what is good sometimes at the time.  Good can come out of all situations.  I hate it that I lost my son.  It was the worst day of my earthly life.  I still cry and mourn and sit in shock starting at his photo wishing he could be here.  I don't know what good will come out of his death but the day after Joshua's death I let the Bible fall open at random and the verse I read was about a seed that must die in order for it to bear a whole new plant with fruit.  One seed has a good out come but only when it dies.  I was mad at God yes, but haven't doubted that he knows what he is doing in allowing my son's death.  My Joshua is perfected and happy ( I truly believe that)  and I am left to make sense out of something that can not make sense to our human minds.  I believe God allowed me to read that verse so I could know that something good would come out of Joshua's death.  Perhaps his friends would be able to hear about God and spend eternity with Joshua because of his death.  For even one person to come to know Jesus and get to enter Heaven with Joshua because of his death would make his death worth while (still painful to me).  Right now seems to hurt forever but it is just a blink in the eye of eternity.  

How do we get there?  The Bible says only accepting Jesus as Lord of your life and asking Him to forgive you will allow you to be forgivin and clean enough to come into His presence.   Whether you believe the Bible or not comes down to a choice and Faith.  Asking God that if he is real please give me the faith to believe.  Show me that you are true.  Be open and read the Bible.  " faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. "   Ultimately the choice is yours to make. 

My son was only 10 but had accepted Jesus.  If I didn't know he was in Heaven I don't really know how I would feel.  To lose my child to Hades would be unacceptable.  I would be even more furious with God.  I don't know how you resolve that if you don't know your child is in heaven.    Sorry this is so long.  I have spent much time pondering these things since Joshua died.  My heart goes out to each of you suffering the same pain I am and the the horrible loss of your children.

 

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i appreciate your honest, deeply thought out answer, sal. this is all i have tried to do: give the chance to communicate with each other over questions that many have.

i believe that seeds need to be alive in order to grow. a dead seed does nothing but rot rather than providing life.

for my part, i want no part of any supreme being who must use the suffering of children to get people to worship him. surely if he is supreme there must be another way. 

not being christian based does not negate the concept/reality of an afterlife. i know cait exists because i have physically seen her with my own eyes once since she passed. i know i will be able to hold her again.

i have struggled with this concept of god's great plan and i just cannot buy into it. as i asked before: why the worship and acceptance of the good and no blame when the bad hits? we are not allowed to behave like that or there would be anarchy.

i have studied the bible my whole life. i think the bible is an interesting, provocative book. but it was written by men. some say they were god inspired, but in the end it was men. i do not believe in original sin. i DO think shite just sometimes happens, but i just cannot give praise to the use of children's suffering.

i know all the cliches about faith. yet i cannot conceive of a god that would exclude much of the world. mel gibson is convinced that, tho his wife is a better person than he is she will not go to heaven because she believes differently than he does.

i think there are many paths and perhaps, in the end, they will all be right or all wrong. to exclude most of the world from a heaven would be, in essence, sinful to my thinking.  

best,

annie

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Hello everyone,

My name is Sonya and I lost my oldest daughter Danielle on Oct 11, 2007 in a car accident. I'm new to the site I've been reading what everyone has written and I'm with you on everything. My prays are with you all. I miss Danielle so much she was my pride and joy. I also feel Danielle is not an angle because Angel's don't know the meaning of "Amazing Grace". I know my baby is in heaven singing Amazing Grace how sweet the sound because she was a Christian and is with her heavenly father. I also believe that the Lord is holding me and my family up to be able for me to get up every moring and go to work and take care of my family. I think of Danielle every minute of the day and miss her beyond words. I really hope this does not hurt anyone reading this because I'm really looking for help in getting me through this. I really don't know what to say but after I read each posting I pray for peace to each of you.

Another thing, I can talk about my faith now but will it be there tomorrow, next week, next year, when it's been more than a couple of months missing my Danielle??? I don't know I sure hope so! HUGS to everyone.

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[user=19062]daniellemom[/user] wrote:

Hello everyone,

My name is Sonya and I lost my oldest daughter Danielle on Oct 11, 2007 in a car accident. I'm new to the site I've been reading what everyone has written and I'm with you on everything. My prays are with you all. I miss Danielle so much she was my pride and joy. I also feel Danielle is not an angle because Angel's don't know the meaning of "Amazing Grace". I know my baby is in heaven singing Amazing Grace how sweet the sound because she was a Christian and is with her heavenly father. I also believe that the Lord is holding me and my family up to be able for me to get up every moring and go to work and take care of my family. I think of Danielle every minute of the day and miss her beyond words. I really hope this does not hurt anyone reading this because I'm really looking for help in getting me through this. I really don't know what to say but after I read each posting I pray for peace to each of you.

Another thing, I can talk about my faith now but will it be there tomorrow, next week, next year, when it's been more than a couple of months missing my Danielle??? I don't know I sure hope so! HUGS to everyone.

i am sorry for your loss sonya. and i appreciate your input on this subject. discussing does not have to be disparaging to anyones faith or spirituality.

there may just be room for all of us in this universe...

best,

annie

 

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Thank you, I'm with you that we can agree to disagree and still help each other. Can you tell me about your loss?

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I saw this topic this morning, and tried to pen a reply that wasn't too wordy, that explained my views on who God is, what our position's are as Eternal souls, but decided not to post it because of the so many differences in Faith. I do not believe God "punishes" us by way of harming our children. God had nothing to do with "taking" David, although He knew it would be. How could a "good" God "let this happen"? Well, God does NOT interfere in our everyday lives the way I see it.  He is there constantly, watching, listening, and helping, but does not "take" from us. My son is gone because of stupid choices he and his friends made. I am not mad at God. God is ALL I have that is certain and Eternal, and I know that when my miserable earthly life is over i will be reunited with Him, and with David. For now, I must accept that, and look forward to that day...but also live, or learn to live some sort of life so that my other boys can grow up to be adjusted men.

God loves all of His children, including those of many faiths, even those who don't have any!

I also do not see David as an "Angel", although he has wings. David was fortunate to have been given the gift of God, and i know that this is something he accepted as truth. I felt it at his funeral, saw it when he accepted his beads from his brother...He did go home to God, and while I would much rather have him with me, what better place could my child be until I again get to hold him?

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lisa, i appreciate your thots on this.

i am happy that cait where she is in the afterlife. it may not be the heaven i was taught about but i know it exists. so there is my faith, i guess.

however, i was not speaking of god punishing, yet using the death of a child as a means to bring someone else to him. i hear and see that concept expressed a lot.

my daughter made no mistakes, did nothing to cause the leukemia. we couldn't have prevented it. so what are those in our position to make of this watching, listening, helping god? if he chooses to be hands off, then what is the use? i have friends who only see the time here as a handicap until they can be joined in heaven with god. if he exists, then i see that as a waste of a gift given; surely this life, while perhaps only a part of the journey must be an important part, to be lived.

many believe in a god that impacts every bit of their lives. they can find a reason and religious justification for everything that happens: but, as i said, the good are miracles, the bad are nothing to do with god.

(i am playing a bit of devil's advocate, pardon the bad metaphore).

annie

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Hey annie - nice can of worms..............I think I take God out of the equation with Micheal and many  young people I saw dying over my years.  I know it is of no comfort, but I think of us all came into being with a limited 'life span'.  What I don't get is the ways in which we leave.  Many are mans inhumanity.......Others I really wish I had some answers......but I don't

Not sure who runs what outside this earthly realm, but I believe with all my heart that Micheals energy moved on to a better place, not a heaven, but perhaps another world/life where his life lessons are utilised not lost.

I wouldn't like to think of all he learnt and all he struggled through being lost by just hovering about in heaven. 

Cait had many strengths and wisdoms that should not be lost.  They show in her photos and her story.

Hear where you are, feel the pain of your loss through your words with each post.

Take care.  Read you PM's?

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4everjoeysmom

My name is Claudia, and I lost my son Joey on July 31, 2006.  Joey was a believer, prayed to receive Jesus as Lord of his life, and so forth, so I too know by faith (in Biblical truth as my foundation as well) that Joey is in Heaven, in the presence of God--not hovering, but a part of the Kingdom, eternal life there, and in a position/place that was prepared very specifically for him--with all the rewards and full use of the wisdom, gofts and talents that he was created with and learned by the grace of God through his almost-24 years here.

The Bible does say that God takes away.  There are many examples of God "taking away"--he has taken away wisdom and knowledge from the foolish who abuse it and misuse it.  he has taken away (remember Jonah's shrub) by letting what he gives wither away or be destroyed, and he has certainly taken away life--but in the sense of earthly death and eternal spiritual death for those that have denied him.  God is an angry, jealous God when we stand to worship anything and everything but him--and that includes our worship of our children over him.  But I dpn't believe he takes away our children to punish us for that.  He certainly will remove our idols by his will, but the suffering and death of our children is not something he does for spite or cruelty.  In the Book of Job, God allowed satan to tormen tJob and to take away everything Job had--his children, his wealth, his health, everything except his wife, who mocked Job and cursed him for not being angry and against God for all the pain and infliction that befelled him.  Still Job was faithful, and God allowed this as proof when satan wanted to test Job's faith.  it's easy to have faith when all is going well, but when we are stripped of everything, will we still stand firm in our faith, claiming God righteous and worthy of our praise?  That's one of the very core questions of true faith (in the Biblical Truths Sence of the word faith).  Yes, the Bible was penned by various authors who were men--but all were men God had chosen for His purposes.  Everything of the Old Testament speaks of what is to come in Christ Jesus.  It explains the very nature of God (an angry and jealous God).  And the New Testament speaks of Christ and post-Christ, of Revelation, Heaven, and so forth.  Each, the Old and the New point to one another and Prophecy is revealed time and again.  It is a matter of Faith to believe the Bible is God-Breathed, God-Inspired, and as written in 1 John 1: Jesus, Hismself, God incarnate, The WORD become Flesh.  If that part of Biblical Truth is denied, then absolutely nothing else in the Bible is of value for one that has no faith in the Bible as absolute Truth.  It is complete, not to be added to or taken away from, as instructed by God Himself in Scripture.

Everyone can sit around and mull over whether or not the Bible is Truth, or discuss millions of other faiths and versions thereof.  It's a free world to do that--well, not really, because as a missionary i am very aware of the persecution and physical tortures and death that befall people for being Christians in parts of the world.  BUT, my point is when we remove the Truth of the Word being God inspired, God-breathed, Infallible (without error), and God Himself--then how can we say anything of the Bible is absolute Truth?  There must be a foundation of believing the Bible is Absolute Truth, otherwise it just becomes subjective, to be molded and shaped by any other faith or opinion out there.  My point is not to brow-beat or anything.  It's just that so many times I see people take parts, bits and pieces of the Bible that feels comfy and leave behind some of the hard core, foundational truths that reveal to us who God truly is, his nature, his character, his all-powerful, knowing and righteousness.  t's so easy to assume as humans here in a fallen world that we are good and right and God is the one that has something wrong with him, that he is making mistakes.  But I believe He is perfect and always faithful and good.  I believe this because it is written by him on my heart.  he has claimed my soul, and he teaches me his wisdom through his grace and mercy.  All the way back to the Garden, it was man who ate after being tempted.  It was man who fell and thus fell the world.  Christ was sent as  Hope to restore mankind and the world.  But not everyone believed and followed, even though everything he breathed, spoke and did was prophecy fulfilled.  Jesus said anyone seeing Him has also seen the Father.  So by Jesus being here among us, he in the flesh revealed so much of God--but only for those that wanted to believe and follow.  To everyone else, he was just a man.  But was he really?  My point in asking that is, just because we say something different or make something relative to us individually, does it become absolute Truth?  Just because we pick and choose Scripture, choose to believe and disbelieve, and seek other sources of information outside of the Bible, does it make the Bible not True?  Not God inspired?  Not infallible?  Not Word become Flesh in the form of Jesus Christ?

Whew...  that was so deep, I think I am stuck and have to pull my weight out...  I am truly sorry of that was over the top, as I am not meant to offend anyone here.  It's an awesome discussion.  I do believe God wants to be the core, the very center of our lives and who and what we are all about.  And sometimes it takes something so devastating to happen around us to bring us to our knees in honest, holy praise and worship.  Sometimes it's also that something so devastating that drives one far away from God in anger and rage, and disbelief.  It is a personal choice to follow--and not just to follow, but to do so in bad times as well as the good.

To get off that for a sec and back to Joey and how my core belief helps me to cope.  I believe that life here is training ground for our eternal life.  As a human being it is sometimes really hard for me to see past this earthly life, because truthfully when everything is going well, I could stay here and relish in this life forever.  But I don;t think that's what i was created for.  I believe I was created to honor and glorify God, to worship Him and to be in His fellowship forever.  But he is not forcing me to choose that.  It is by his grace I have a choice.  Joey chose God.  And even though his path afterward was rough, he is definitely smooth sailing now.  Sometimes we are so focused on the life here and now instead of the eternal life for which we were ultimately created for that we fail to see that the healing may not be done here, but the full healing may come to us after we have passed from this life into our eternal life.  Yes, the pain and suffereing here is horrendous, and especially when it is a child who suffers so.  But that suffering is not permanent--not for the child and not for us.  Beyond this is more...  

1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-- 

It is here in this place that I cannot even begin to imagine with my finite mind, this place where Joey dwells in the House of the Lord forever.  It is here that I find my peace in knowing that no matter what we suffer in this life, God has restored to perfection my son accirding to his plan, way beyond anything this world can offer.  It was not in vain...  It will never be in vain...  How can it be with God in control...?  If it were in my hands, it would have been messed up long, long before now....

Just some food for the pot....  no offense intended.  Love and blessings, and much peace to be found for us all...  -Claudia (the honored vessel God chose to be Joey's mom)

 

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thank you for your response, claudia.

there is no way to respond to your post without things that would only bring contention.

i am leaving this thread now; anyone who wants to continue may do so or not. i didn't expect to get answers to my specific questions and didn't.

peace and light to us all, no matter what our path.

annie

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4everjoeysmom
"why is god always praised but never blamed? why does he get to go thru the universe guiding supposedly but never having to take responsibility for our losses? why are we supposed to accept there is some great plan for the universe that necessitated the death of children??"
I'm sorry Annie.  Truly, it was not my intent to upset you.  I looked again at your questions...and as difficult as they are for each of us, because we all face them in our own personal magnitude of loss and giref, the only answer, as cold as it sounds is:
Because God is God and we are not.  Because God never intended for it to be all about us.  Before time began and before the creation of humankind it was, is and always will be all about Him.  Everything was ceated by Him, for Him and through Him for His glory...not ours.
I can only speak for myself here in saying that I know when I truly glorify Him, no matter my circumstances, this is when He gives me greater insights into joy, peace, understanding, and the things of His Kingdom far beyond here.  I know its probably of no consollation for many, but for me it has made the difference from just surviving a loss like this to actually living beyond my loss.  I miss Joey more than I could ever possibly express, and I hate that he is not here where I can hear him and touch him and smell him.  I hate it so much.  But in the grand tapestry of it all, I know this is not his end...   Blessings, Claudia 
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you did not upset me, claudia; there is no need for feeling sorry. i just do not want to continue a discussion that has now, imho, only the chance for upsetting or offending people.

you are sincere in your beliefs and posted them in an intelligent way. it is no easy task for any of us.

you are sure of what you speak. i know what i believe and am just as sure, at least about aspects of it including that cait still exists. however, it is difficult to be in the minority at times and those who fall outside the traditional judeo-christian are in that spot on most grief boards.

i appreciate all the resonses given to this thread. there was no anger or condescension expressed and i think we can all be proud that religion was discussed without those failings.

light to all of us,

annie 

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4everjoeysmom

Dearest Annie, with all sincerity, I am so very sorry for your loss and the terrible deep missing of your precious Katie.  No matter what any of us believes will happen beyond this life, our relaity IN this life is the same.  We miss our precious children, and we hurt so badly without them....  for this, the world/society has placed us in a collective minority in which we feel imprisoned and lonely except with those who have walked a mile in our shoes.  I pray each one of us finds Hope and Peace.  Blessings and much love, Claudia

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4everjoeysmom

I am sorry for mispelling Caite's name...  the photo/painting/sketch you have on your avatar os so precious...

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I too had faith throughout my growing years.  I raised my children in the faith.....until they were of an age where they could read the text, evaluate the faith and chose for themselves.  While nursing in the field of oncology, I lost my faith.......I have sought to find other means to describe whys and wheres.......

Our opinions on God Heaven and such are just as individual as the grief we all share.

For those with the faith and the strength of their beliefs, I truly envy you. 

Unfortunately, mine differ.  My strengths and theories on the placement of my son in the energy of the afterlife are just as unique.

Annie, I thank you for you asking the difficult questions, questions that have been asked throughout the ages........the answers as always will never be black or white. 

I too will leave this to greater minds, mine seems to be focussed only on losing a son and a life that I once felt blessed to have.......

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4everjoeysmom

I was reading through some devotionals last night that have compiled since I've been away for the Holidays and now in trying to catch up on things.  It seems that when i am in the quiet, listening, and meditating on what it is God is trying to teach me in the moment, that is when I most find my affirmations of Hope.  I just want to briefly share with anyone else who may be struggling and whpo would find comfort in this.  It won't be for everyone's taste or beliefs, and that is the uniqueness of our pilgrimage...

Excerpt from my devotional:

______________

Christianity is not a matter of preference or pedigree, but pilgrimage chosen specifically because we have found one worth following. "[Jesus] was the meekest and lowliest of all the sons of men," wrote Scottish nobleman James Stewart, "yet he spoke of coming on the clouds of heaven with the glory of God... No one was half so kind or compassionate to sinners yet no one ever spoke such red-hot scorching words about sin... His whole life was love. Yet on one occasion he demanded of the Pharisees how they ever expected to escape the damnation of hell... He saved others but at the last, Himself He did not save. There is nothing in history like the union of contrasts which confront us in the Gospels." Why Christian? Because there is none other like Christ. "He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay" (Matthew 28:6).

The incomparability of Jesus Christ answers the questions that come my way in a world of spiritual options and religious hostility. Facing the question "Why Christian?" is typically a matter of confessing the things I know, even as I know I now see but a dim reflection, but shall one day see face to face. Still, there are less typical days when the question comes, but from somewhere within, and the answers are somewhere stopped up with the tears I am trying to hold back. When standing over a casket or holding the hand of one whose body is riddled with cancer, "Why Christian?" takes on a different flesh--or else it wavers cold and corpselike. Christ's uniqueness is suddenly a matter of urgency, needing to be spoken in words that have meaning even in valleys of death and shadow. Standing before this body that once breathed, what does it really mean that Christ was unique? Though with a far different kind of trembling certainty, here too we are reminded that Christ's incomparability is ultimately what matters.

The apologetic of the apostle Paul was always spoken starring life's "last enemy" dead in the eyes (1 Corinthians 15:26). Whether answering the question "Why Christian?" or standing in jail having been beaten to silence, Paul kept before him the hope of the resurrection as both the proof of Christ's uniqueness and the assurance that this uniqueness inherently matters. He spoke of the resurrection of Christ and his hope in the resurrection of the dead before the assembled Sanhedrin (Acts 23:6), before Felix (Acts 24:15, 21), and again before Felix's successor, Festus, who conceded that Paul's arrest was due to his proclamation "about a dead man named Jesus who Paul claimed was alive" (Acts 25:19). Even before king Agrippa, Paul's answer to the first acrimonious signs of the question "Why Christian?" was an appeal to Christ's uniqueness in the hope of the resurrection. He asked, "Why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?...I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen--that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles" (Acts 26:8, 22). For Paul, and for all who claim the inimitableness of Jesus, if Christ has not been raised, there is no answer to the question "Why Christian?"

Instead, the uniqueness of Christ is an answer deep enough for questions that come with sarcasm or sincerity. But so it is an answer with flesh when life's typical comforts fall by the wayside and the valley of shadows is long and lonely. There is none other like Christ. I know of no other god who weeps with us at gravesides and then shows us in his own dying and rising that death no more holds its sting.

______________________________

It is with the resurrection of Christ I truly hold my Hope in that there is a bodily resurrection to eternity...not just a soul floating around, or matter, or energy, but a full and perfect bodily resurrection, just like Christ's.  He says so, and I believe it.  This is why I can stand up in my grief and know that I will see Joey again.  If it weren't for the ultimate resurrection, I would have no Hope.  It wasn't just the coming and dying for us, but the rising to new and eternal life where I hold my greatest Faith and Hope.

I just wanted to share, because I know there are many Christians out here that struggle like me.  There are those who believe lots of other paths, and if you find your peace there, that is your own pilgrimage, and I mean no offense to you.  But I want so desperately to give encouragement to all who do believe and want to be lifted and reminded of why and where they lay their Hope.  It isn't about what happens in this life and in this world so much as it is about what happens for eternity...

Blessings and love, Claudia 

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Joey's Mom,

Thanks for this very special passage. It will be 3 months this Friday that my 21 year old daughter Danielle passed away in a car accident and I'm with you that I know I will see her again. I will pray for us to continue to draw strength from the Lord in our daily walk. Peace to you and your family.

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4everjoeysmom

Bless your sweet heart, Daniell's Mom.  I'm so very sorry for your loss.  Isn;t it said though our loss is heaven's gain?  As difficult as that is for us, I must say it is the ONLY comfort i have in knowing they are well, alive, perfect, and in the company of God himself.  I do look forward to my arrival there when God says its time.  Until then I cherish my loved ones here and the relationships God gives me to see me through.  I am a missionary in a foreign land, so I have no choice but to rely on Him daily.  He is always faithful and good to me, no matter my circumstances in life.

 

I remember at 3 months for me, the numbness was fading and the deep pain was setting in.  It was a very dark valley....  please know you can call on me and I will listen and lift you up to the Father in prayer.  Blessings and love, Claudia

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jordansproudmom

Claudia,

It's amazing that simple words posted on a website, written by someone I have never met can immediately hit to the core of my being. I too am I believer. My son Jordan's Heaven date is 10/20/07. I am just 2 months into my grief and loss. It's been an interesting ride to say the least. Jordan loved the Lord from an early age. He was 4 when he accepted Jesus and he began ministering when he was 5 lol! He tried to lead my ex-husband's mother to the Lord when he was 5 years old. She has yet to accept Jesus but I am working on her. She remembers the day he asked her to accept Jesus. She thought I told him to say it and I did not. He asked me one night why Grammy didn't bow her head when we prayed at dinner and I told him simply that she did not know Jesus. The very next day he started working on her lol. I told her last week that Jordan wanted her to go to Heaven then and he still wants that for her now. We raised our boys in church almost up until the 6 months prior to their father leaving us. But, Jordan was a typical teen. He still talked about the Lord but he was living outside of church and the Lord's will. That had nothing to do with his death. However the girl who got drunk and took my son on an ATV was directly related to the Lord. She was a stranger to Jordan but come to find out she was raised in church. She knew the Lord and had strayed. I walked away from church when my ex left the boys and I. Taking God and putting him in my pocket and taking him out when I really felt I needed to. I consider the past 5 years my wandering in Egypt. God kept telling me...Simone the promised land is not the way you're traveling but I continued to wander in the desert. Two weeks before Jordan was killed I prayed (which is not something I did often) and I said Lord...I have no idea how I am going to get back to you. I fell flat on my face the day Jordan died. I have since come back to Him. But not easily at times. I could tell you a 100 spiritual marker stories from my life. And I know God is merciful to me in a lot of ways. Including allowing Jordan and I, a 2 hour talk 2 days before he went to Heaven. Even Jordan's death and how quick and painless it was. I love Jesus, Claudia. And after reading your post I was thinking wow...here is a woman I have never met and yes we share the loss of our sons but we have a deeper connection then that. We are both daughters of the King. I immediately connected with your post. It is one of those little pushes I need from God to let me know He's right here. Because lately...I have the enemy on my back...telling me lies...making me feel like I am never going to see Jordan again and that my faith is just some fairytale. But, if you are across the world and I don't even know you and I am reading your post and I immediately relate to it and I agree with everything you said. Why? because it's here in my heart. Since you've lost Joey did you ever question God? Or have you just kept your faith from the moment he went to Heaven? I am just curious. Having a mentor at this time would be a HUGE blessing. I hope this finds you having a better day today!

Love,

Simone

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4everjoeysmom

Dear Simone,  I did question God.  But not because I didn't believe.  My questions weren't so much the "why's".  My questions were the "how's".  How am I supposed to live through this?  How am I supposed to stand firm in my faith through this?  How am I supposed to carry on?  How did this happen?  How Lord?  And by no coincidence a couple of months after Joey died and the How's were beginning to weigh me down, a friend and sister in the Lord in North Carolina e-mailed me and simply said she had been lifting me up and bathing my "how's" in prayer.  How she knew, only the Lord knows.  But she is a remarkable woman of God and very strongly gifted in intercessory prayer.  And by God's mercy is the only way she could possibly have known to pray specifically for me in that manner.  I had been keeping myself very isolated and distant at that point i n my grief.  Two months is such a short time, my dear friend and sister.  And my heart breaks for you.  My journey became even tougher still at 3 months and 6 months, because the cruelty of the world and the harshness of waking up to my new reality in this life began to set in.  Mind you, I have a very strong faith, but the enemy lurks, constantly waiting to catch us at our darkest, most vulnerable hour, to lie to us, and to shift us from our Rock, our foundation for being.  I know exactly where you are.  And it is not uncommon for you to question God, as I did as well.  And I know we all do, whether we believe or not, because He is the one so many first call out to to answer their questions that make no rational sense.  The only problem with expecting answers, is that we often don;t hear the answers, because they aren't the answers we want.  Without getting too nutty about that, please know you can e-mail me too, anytime you want to.  I have made it my life's mission to not only be in the mission field for God's work on a daily basis, which is why I am in Ecuador, BUT also to walk alongside other grieving moms--and I am so willing to stand in the gap for anyone who needs a friend.  I am not perfect--very far from it.  But the Lord has given me a sincere heart of passion and compassion for the grieving, and I want to hnor that calling--foremost to glorify Him, but also because I know how very important it is to have someone lifting me up, walking with me, and just being so that I can truly feel I am not alone in this world, my faith, or my journey in loss and grief.

I am so very sorry for your loss.  Not only have you lost precious Jordan, but it sounds like the world lost a very special minister.  So much has Heaven gained!

Blessings for peace this day, and much love, in Christ,

Claudia

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I haven't questioned God in the sense of his reality or that he knows best, but I have felt angry and felt like I don't want to have to grow in faith like this.  I don't want to be an example for others. I don't want to have to be the strong one.  I want to have my son here Lord and you in your amazing wisdom (that I don't have) allowed him to go home to you.   I want to live my own little life on earth without trials and heartache.  Never mind that it says we will suffer while on earth, Lord, I don't want it if it has to do with losing my children. 

  I have always wanted to serve the Lord anyway possible, but I have felt angry that I have to serve the Lord in this way.  Sometimes I fear that God will allow other disasters to befall my family and I struggle to be willing.  I find myself thinking you can use me anyway you like, but you can't have my other children, Lord please don't ever take my other children.  And then I have to step back and think who am I to decide how and when the Lord will use me and my family.  I have always prayed that my children will be used by the Lord for His glory and they will be men and women after His own heart.  It is not for me to put restrictions on how they are used. 

 I also struggle with my mother's desire to see my son happy.  I know mentally that Joshua is happy and is not missing anything but it is so hard with our limited human bodies to know emotionally that he is happy...to feel like he is happy and there is no where else he wants to be.  Our eyes and ears and other senses are the way we process things and it is so hard to rely on our spiritual senses to understand how happy our children our.  If I could really understand it I would have to be overjoyed for Joshua.  Of course I would miss him, but how could I ask for him back and take him away from the greatest place that could ever happen to him.  I know I am rambling here.  I have enjoyed reading the responses of other believers.  Not one of us wanted to be used this way.  Not one of us would have willingly chosen for God to use us in this way.  But we all share this grief...the grief God himself knew when he willingly gave his own son for us.

Sal

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Claudia, Thank you for sharing that beautiful passage. I believe ,like you so eloquently wrote. I do believe also that our bodies will be resurrected and I will see my Dear Michael, for the bible says 'you will be known as you were known. So Michael will know me as his mom. That is my HOPE. I believe Mike is in heaven with God. Can you help me and explain that. Is it his soul that is with God and then when Christ comes again his body will be resurrected. Why does the bible say you will be asleep in God until the last day?? That part confuses me but it doesn't affect my Faith.Thank you so much.GOD bLESS YOU!

BigMikesMom-Patti

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4everjoeysmom

Hi Patti,  I am unclear of you are addressing Scripture of 1 Thessalonians 4 or elsewhere, because there are several places that address those "asleep" in Christ.  In this context to be asleep in Christ means those that have doed their earthly death but are in Christ Jesus as believers, as he is Lord.  In this sense they aren't actually asleep.  They are fully alive and in the presence of the Lord now, but are referred to by God as asleep in Christ in Scripture.  Bear with me.  I know it's confusing.

Many people interpret these passages and Revelation (the theology of end times, other known as escatology) in differing viewspoints.  Some believe those who have gone before us, their spirit is with the Lord and their bodies will be resurrected at the commencement of eternity, on the Last Day.  The Bible is clear that before the Resurrection of Christ, the dead (believers asleep in the Lord) were in the Abode of the Dead, or known as Jacob's Bosom, and Hades for those apart and eternally separated from God.  Some believe that after the Resurrection of Christ the fulfillment of "The Way" to heaven in the presence of the Lord has been accomplished and the resurrection of the dead in Christ immediately takes place now.  While Scripture is not exceedingly clear on the actual points of when the bodily resurrection of the dead takes place, even though there are references to those before us being resurrected and joining after with those that are still alive when Christ comes on the clouds, it leaves much to speculation.  When the thief was on the cross next to Jesus, Jesus said to him, "This Day you shall be with me in paradise".  And Paul said to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord--To Live is Christ, to die is gain.  There is no gain by sleeping.  It must be referring to passing from this life into leternal life with christ, in His presence.  So from that I do believe that there is an immediate going to be in the presence of the Lord.  And from the 1 Thes passages I mentioned, it's clear that whatever our perfect and bodily resurrected state will be, it happened or happens for those gone before us before it will happen for those still alive on earth at the Coming.  I just don't know when the actual point of the "before us" their bodily resurrection happens, and the Bible doesn't really say.  Again, it leaves much to ponder.  But in reality, I don;t focus on that so much, because what is clear is that Joey is there in heaven now, in the presence of God.  There is revelation from John in the book of Revelation when he sees Heaven, and sees the 24 Elders, the Apostles of Christ and the 12 heads of the 12 Tribes of Israel is who I assume that is about.  So if he actually saw them in the vision that God gave, he would have seen them in body.

You are correct in that "we will be known as we were known".  Joey is known as Joey and he is recognized there.  Michael is as well.  And you and I will be.  I believe Joey will know me as his mom, the vessel that here on earth was his mom.  He will also know me as his sister in the Lord and one of all those who come together to be the Bride of Christ.  I hope that isn't upsetting or confusing.  What excites me about all of that is that in heaven Joey and I will be SO MUCH more to one another than we could ever imagine being here as mom and son.  It's hard to explain or grasp, even for me as I write it, but I believe it with my whole heart.

I hope that wasn't as confusing as I feel it left me...  Anyhow, I do believe there are many things that will be revealed to us in God's character of being "manifold", that we can't possibly fully grasp with our finite minds now.  But as we go to be with Him, so much more will be revealed and will continue to be revealed about God for all eternity.  It baffles me that anyone can think that he can fully understand any nuance of God, heaven, and everything of the nature of God fully in this life, when God clearly speaks to His nature being one that will continue to be revealed to us essentially forever.  There are lots of things we can know now, but in some cases have to trust God and rely on Him and our faith to just "Be Still" and know He is God.

:)  Blessings and Hugs, Claudia

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4everjoeysmom

Sal, I too had major struggles in the early months of losing Joey, much like you describe.  But a good mentor once told me not to rely on my emotions when it comes to matters of faith, but to rely on God, the Scriptures and them being in their correct context.  Sometimes my emotions would want to take things out of context to pacify my pain or easy my concern.  But in reality, in faith, I do find peace in knowing that without doubt Joey is at peace, in full joy, in the presence of the Lord, and there is no better place.  It is for me, here in this life where the difficulty is.

I remember after losing Joey, my younger son (and his dad) both prayed to receive the Lord.  It was nothing short of a miracle that, that happened.  And I highly wonder if my younger son ever would have come to Christ had his life remained so idly perfect.  He was always and is as near to perfect as any child can be for a parent.  And I remember God speaking to my heart and showing me a vision of one son being with me in heaven and the other not.  And if I had, had a choice, would I have sacrificed one to save them both?  And I don;t know that I ever could have done anything by choice in the sense of choosing anything of the sort--metaphorically speaking.  BUT, then God whispered to me, "you didn't have to choose".  My reality is that while I miss Joey here so much, both of my sons will spend eternity, with me, in the presence of the Lord.  The ultimate end to which God did know best, and I could not possibly have known.

It's not easy living for the Lord, and making some of the sacrifices I've been called to make.  But it is a journey of fulfillment and joy in unspeakable ways.  One thing I have conquered since losing Joey is my fear to step out farther in faith.  God says countless times Not to Fear!  And since losing Joey, I can imagine no greater pain or suffering that a mother losing a child.  So I no longer fear what's around the next turn of life.  I know God is with me there, and I know no matter what the circumstance I face, my life here is but short.  It is after this life where my true heart and focus are.  And until I reach that point, for all the goodness and mercy God has shown me, I want to give back to others so that they might too know Him.  It isn't an easy journey, but it is marked with unspeakable peace and joy along the way...  and yes, I do suffer in times, but no more than He has suffered for me.....  I of course pray for protection over my family all the time.  One thing you said in so many words was that God already marked his plan for each of us.  So there isn't anything I could possibly do to extend or shorten a life He has control of.  I have to learn along the way to cherish the moments I have here and anticipate the eternity I will have there.

I do pray His peace and comfort find you...  Hugs, Claudia

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Claudia,

You are so right that 3 months is still so new and I'm well aware that the only way I'm making it through this is the Lord is holding me up. My church is holding me up in prayer and my family is wonderful.

You are such an insipiration to me. And the work you do must be very fullfilling. I'm really not very good at typing what's in my heart but I want you to know that you are in my prayers and your whole family.

I'm so glad I've found this site just reading your post means a lot to me.

You are really helping me and I hope this finds you with peace today.

Love and prayers,

Sonya

Danielle's Mama

09-21-86 - 11-10-07

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Claudia,

You are so right that 3 months is still so new and I'm well aware that the only way I'm making it through this is the Lord is holding me up. My church is holding me up in prayer and my family is wonderful.

You are such an insipiration to me. And the work you do must be very fullfilling. I'm really not very good at typing what's in my heart but I want you to know that you are in my prayers and your whole family.

I'm so glad I've found this site just reading your post means a lot to me.

You are really helping me and I hope this finds you with peace today.

Love and prayers,

Sonya

Danielle's Mama

09-21-86 - 11-10-07

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4everjoeysmom

Sonya,  Just remember when the words from your heart just can't come, God says the Holy Spirit stands to intercede in prayer for us through grumblings and moanings that we don;t necessarily understand, but He knows our heart and HE WILL understand and hear our prayers.  You are blessed to have such a good and godly team of support through your loss.  Have you considered or done a memorial website for precious Danielle?  My Joey's is here: 

http://joey-mcconkey.virtual-memorials.com/

I can't imagine had I not had the outlet to create this very personal and love-filled memorial of his life.  It was so very hard to do, but so very needed at the same time.  His family and friends visit regularly, especially when they are missing him so badly and just need to see his precious smile.  I was about 4 months along in my loss when I began to work on it.  One of the greatest and very real fears I had after losing Joey was that my numb and fuzzy and deeply pained mind and heart would forget him, details, smells, sights, sounds, everything.  When I was putting together his Remembering Joey page, memories just flowed in--so bittersweet and precious.  I joke now that if I should ever get alzheimers, I can always go and visit Joey's site and remember him.  I've actually been thinking of creating a memories page for my son Patrick, just so should that forbid ever happen to me, I will remember him too, even though he is still here.  One never knows what age will bring...

Praying for you too, and ever grateful for your prayers,

Love, Claudia

 

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Claudia, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. I want to get to where you are in your relationship with Jesus. I believe EVERYTHING you have said. I have come to this understanding ,with God's Help, at a much deeper level since Michael entered eternal life.But it helps to hear it in the words you so eloquently write. I think I just spiralled so far into depression that even though I tried to keep strong, I couldn't do it.But God kept me from drowning,He Held me up. I sometimes try to get to technical, thats my personality, but I believe ,like you said, sometimes you just have to BELIEVE, TO TRUST that is what Faith is.I like hearing the way you put it into comforting WORDS, that our sons are truly at peace with Christ. I guess on a selfish note, I want to feel that love and bond as Mikes Mom forever even into eternity.But, I have to remember It is all about God. God is who I place my TRUST. He is a Good God. I need to practice or should I say "LET GO AND LET GOD" my DEPRESSION is real and I know meds will help at this time but I also have to really believe and ask God to help me. I feel that if I let go of my feelings-sad,depression,that I am abandoning Mike, but I just realized I am not abandoning Mike and it isn't going to make me see him sooner, and it won't help anyone and I won't be the best that I can be, the way God made me to be. I am really going to start FOCUSING on that instead of How much I miss Mike and How great Mike was and How Unfair and WHY? I AM GOING TO TRY SO HARD. I REALLY really APPRECIATE YOU! I want to be like you. I Love you, my sister in Christ.

SINCERELY,

BigMikesMom(Patti)

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I have been thinking about doing one for Danielle and I'm trying to get started on it but first I had to upgrade our computer and I'm still working on that but have about got that ready. I will let you know when it's completed.

Thanks for sharing Joey with me. I feel like I know him now and what a handsome young man!!

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4everjoeysmom

Patti, Sally, and Sonya,  Thank you so very much for visiting Joey and for expressing such kindness and love.  I know our kids are forming their team together in heaven, and they are all best of friends.  They are sisters and brothers now too.

Patti, I admit to you that I have moments of deep down aching and missing for Joey.  It's hard to let it all go.  I felt once like you do, that if I let go and move forward I would forget Joey or not be honoring him.  But that is not true.  It is another lie from the enemy.  I know to honor him best os to honor the Lord.  It's hard to stay focused on the things of God when we live in a world that so loudly screams to tempt our flesh.  And God undestands that we stumble.  God does not see us as failures when we fall, as the enemy would like us to believe.  He does not forget we are his when we question and turn away in our most vulnerable moments and deepest grief.  He just prays for us, is with us, and waits for us to return to our Him, our Father.  So take baby steps and pray, pray, pray.  Don't feel like you ahve to conquer it in a day.  I took Ambien at night off and on for the better part of a year, and it did help me to get back to a sleep pattern without waking in overwhelming thought.  I would take it for a few nights then off for a couple, so I wouldn't get hooked psychologically or physically.  I prayed a lot, and thankfully I am making it through this storm.  I couldn't have done it without Him or without the love of others here through my darkest hours.  And though I still stumble, I do see light often, and that is a miracle I wasn't sure I would ever see when I began this journey.  In my own miracle, I do pray you all will find hope, comfort, and along the way more and more light for the journey.  I will be praying for you, and us all, as we struggle to move into the light beyond this valley.  As Paul reminded, we will press on toward the goal, and it's such a beautiful blessing to have sisters to walk with and help us when we fall.  God is so good, indeed.  BIG HUGS, Claudia

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4everjoeysmom

P.s.  If any of you ladies have never heard the song HELD by Natalie Grant, I encourage and recommend for you to find a copy and listen.  It is absolutely beautiful, somewhat sad, but filled with Promise and how God truly loves us in our grief.  xoxoxo

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"God is an angry, jealous God when we stand to worship anything and everything but him--and that includes our worship of our children over him. 
It's hard to let it all go.  I felt once like you do, that if I let go and move forward I would forget Joey or not be honoring him.  But that is not true.  It is another lie from the enemy."
Reading the posts here I see that belief and faith are truly strong tools for   strength and healing.                                                                                              I do believe that if you have accepted God, is son Jesus as your saviour, than you are empowered beyond the human experience.    However I am concerned at some of the content posted that may be mis interpreted or misleading.   Raised in the Church of England faith I never in my time at Sunday school or Church heard of a jealous or angry GOD.      Another quote refers to "another lie from the enemy".  Who exactly is the enemy?   I truly love reading the postings from those who share the memories of their children.  Stories of strength allowing another day to pass, noting a greater power than themselves has prevailed.  It is the one thing I draw strenth from, to see others surviving this journey.  Their heart  tells them their children are not lost forever and one day they will see their child again.    This thinking is not governed soley by their beliefs but by the overwhelming need to hold that child once more.      My hope is that this thread will return to stories of hope and inspiration from personal experience be they stories of faith or not.           "there may just be room for all of us in this universe"...  Trudi
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Trudi, We are all in this journey together. This is the "questions of faith forum" There are the other forums we can post on also"the loss of child "loss of teenager" etc. I didn't mean to offend you by talking about our faith but I really love to hear about scripture and God. Claudia has helped me and it sounds like others too. Thank you Claudia. We need you to continue sharing your spiritual insights with us. I didn't want to upset anyone so that is why I asked you and posted on this forum. Please don't stop! By the way , the song Held I have on my facebook and I sent it to all of Mike's friends. It is absolutely beautiful.God Bless!

BigMikesMom-Patti

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4everjoeysmom

Passages from Scripture showing God as "Jealous":

Exodus 34:14 for you shall worship no other God, for the LORD is a Jealous God

This was when the crowd was worshipping a golden calf they had made while becoming impatient in waiting for Moses to come from the mount with the Ten Commandments--one of thenm being Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

There are many other Scripture references of God beinhg jealous as follows.  I have learned just because I don't hear it in church...or better yet, don't rely on man or the church to teach ALL of the Scriptures, read them for one's self.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Deu 5:9, Deu 6:15, Jos 24:19, Eze 36:6, Eze 39:25, and..

Nah 1:2 The LORD is a Jealous and avenging God; the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.  (clearly jealous and angry) It is part of God's nature to be jealous, because He seeks ALL the glory to Himself.  It is His wrath from His anger that has done things like destroy the population during the Flood, and separate the population into nations speaking different tongues at Babyl...  The Bible goes on and on with examples....

On a personal note, I would NOT DARE to post or share anything Biblical before very, very carefully studying in great depth what I wish to share, because I do not want to stand in jundgement before Him one day and be called a heretic.

I too find greatest comfort in the soft and fluffy Scriptures.  But the meaty, convicting ones are just as important to me, because it ALL is the foundation of my faith and salvation.  I don't mean to be so defensive.  I had mentioned before, when we get into meatier discussions of this faith, not everyone is going to agree or like it.  But it is the Great Rock for many of us, and all of it, fluffy and meaty, is the source of our strength and healing....   for those offended, there are simply other boards to post on and this one can be ignored....  It gets kind of nutty when we are expected to keep our dialogue to a level that is comfortable for all the other spiritual paths so they can tolerate us..yet we have to tolerate the depths of every other spiritual conversation, path, belief, or whatever....and for the most part we do by just breezing over ot without creating strife.  I visit and post on many boards, leaving my faith out of the discussion to appease that board.  It will never be a world where we all can fit as long as we (Christians) are always asked to "stand down".  What about us?  Don't we have a place in the world too???

Just thoughts....  and a little frustration, but meant in the utmost respect.  There are those of us who REALLY and TRULY need an outlet to speak of the depths of God and how He is helping us through our grief.  Let's allow at least one board to accommadate such....  Incidentally the I believe in God board I once was told by someone that God can mean any God....and so the strife and differences in "faith" beliefs began there as well--ugh!  So at least here, there may not be a God of the Holy Bible refernce on the board title, but there is a distinct reference by dialogue as to which God we are addressing....  I just hope some day that all who ask for tolerance in the name of peace will also give us that same tolerance.....

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4everjoeysmom

P.s.  "the enemy" in Biblical context refers to satan, God's enemy.

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do you really feel oppressed, claudia? because this thread has been pretty much taken over with christian proslytizing. which is fine, but the old arguement of being asked to be tolerant when being 'silenced' yourself (not you personally, the royal you) just doesn't hold water.

when one is convinced that their way and their way only is the right path, then there really is no debate or questioning.

another question comes to mind: jealosy is seen by most people as a flaw in one's character. again god gets away with a flaw but is instead praised for it. if he is perfect, how can this be?

once the bible is quoted extensively, debate is pretty much over as even well-known religious experts agree that interpretation is the key. literalists will read a passage and get something completely different that someone who is not a literalist. yet each is convinced they are right.

that is why i titled this thread 'questions of faith' rather than religion or christianity or whatever. i much prefer spirituality to religion: the first can be so important to our lives yet the second does more to drive people apart in this world than anything else, imho. too many people equate christianity with morality and goodness and any other faiths as the negative to these. it just isn't the case. i have known many vile christians and many good people of no faith. the opposite is just as true.

best,

annie

 

 

 

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It is so hard to talk about conflicting beleifs without having people become defensive because our faith is the very root and core of what we believe about the world, eternity, and about the place where we believe our beloved children are.  Claudia has the same foundational beliefs that I do so it is very comforting to hear what I believe spoken so eloquantly.  I really appreciate her wise words.  She does the research and actually quotes the Bible which I am bad at.  I know the verses but not where they are found.  I know that the Bible states that as Christians we will be offensive to the World.  Not on purpose and not because we don't love others and want the best for them but because the Bible is very exclusive of those who don't believe.  It does claim one way only to salvation and for those of us who believe that it hurts us to see others on their way to Hell.  It is natural for those of us who really believe the Bible and care about people to want to help them see the way to be forgiven and go to Heaven.  I don't believe there is malice meant by any here.  We have all had horrible losses here and are hurting.  We all miss our children to the very core of our being.  I have often thought I would want to see my son in Heaven more the Jesus King of Kings.  I know Jesus forgives me but I also know that according to the Bible, Jesus is to be worshipped not my son.  In regards to jealousy being considered a flaw...in men it usually is.  I believe we were created to worship God.  That is our purpose.  When He sees us worshiping other gods, idols, ourselves, our created world...we are going astray from our created purpose and He will not allow it.  In the Bible, it isn't about us...It is about Him. 

Sorry...I just had to jump into the debate :?  Hang in there everyone.  Let us not add to our grief with angry words and more hurt in our hearts.  None of us truly wants to add hurt or pain to other grieving hearts.  Peace to all of us

Sal

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[user=18746]k8smum[/user] wrote:

do you really feel oppressed, claudia? because this thread has been pretty much taken over with christian proslytizing. which is fine, but the old arguement of being asked to be tolerant when being 'silenced' yourself (not you personally, the royal you) just doesn't hold water.

when one is convinced that their way and their way only is the right path, then there really is no debate or questioning.

another question comes to mind: jealosy is seen by most people as a flaw in one's character. again god gets away with a flaw but is instead praised for it. if he is perfect, how can this be?

once the bible is quoted extensively, debate is pretty much over as even well-known religious experts agree that interpretation is the key. literalists will read a passage and get something completely different that someone who is not a literalist. yet each is convinced they are right.

that is why i titled this thread 'questions of faith' rather than religion or christianity or whatever. i much prefer spirituality to religion: the first can be so important to our lives yet the second does more to drive people apart in this world than anything else, imho. too many people equate christianity with morality and goodness and any other faiths as the negative to these. it just isn't the case. i have known many vile christians and many good people of no faith. the opposite is just as true.

best,

annie

I am with annie on this one. While I feel nothing but respect and brethern for followers of Jesus, I follow a slightly different path. Jesus remails who Jesus said he was. But to somehow negaete  any other paths to God is insulting, and if I were to start preaching from the Bhagavad Gita (The Song of God), some of you may also feel left out. I will not induldge in such conservations, because a relationship with God is personal, and no one could ever make my relationship with God even appear for one second to be less than theirs, not righteous, not according to Scriptures, blah, blah, blah.

I end with a God Bless, Hare Krishna to each of you Eternal Souls., eacg a spark of the Splendor, each part and parcel of the One. I just call Him by another Name.

Have a nice day. I will see you in the other forums. I am too busy missing my son.

 

 

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4everjoeysmom

I don't feel oppressed at all, generally and specifically speaking.  Truly!  And I sincerely did not post on this thread for any other reason than to share with other Christian sisters who live by a Biblical worldview.  It doesn't matter how often one says before hand that a post may not be for everyone's taste, everyone has an opinion, and they share it, even though negative, just to get their point heard.  That is not my intent in sharing at all.  but I do believe we Christian, Biblical Worldview believers should equally have a place where we can hash out our grief and healing through what we believe, without having to take attack or offense by others who may not necessarily believe what we do.  So, Ladies of Christian, Biblical Worldview, I want to create a new thread called Grief & Healing from a Christian-Biblical Worldview....  perhaps we can meet there to share without persecution for what we believe...  we shall see...  Hugs and love to all, Claudia

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Many of the earliest posts I read on this site were from Claudia.  They were found primarily on the loss of an adult child site.  Claudia, you should know I took more strength from your heartfelt stories of Joey and your loss than I could ever from the avalanche of words preceding this post.  Your words were simple and sincere.  They were your words.

This started as a "Questions of Faith" thread.....there is an "I believe in GOD" thread where the sharing of Scriptures and faith would best be suited as the opportunity to share ideas of faith here has been lost.  

I believe people come into our lives at specific times for a specific purpose.  I came here and found I could grieve openly.  Boundaries normally found in society were down, there was one common thread, we experienced a phenomenal loss of overwhelming dimensions and need to be in a safe and supported enviroment.

BI has been that for me, up until now. Should I post again i will stick with what I know - My son has died......the posts will be my thoughts and feelings about a child/man I loved more than life itself...... Claudia - I note your new thread and respect your request, I hope now have a venue to continue your writings unhindered.

Peace be with you and yours............Blessed be:(

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4everjoeysmom

For my friends, old and new, who may have taken offense to my posts...again, I am sorry.  It was not my intent to "take over" this thread with my views.  One question of faith led to another, and to another, and more joined in, and so on.  My faith is the BIGGEST part of who I am, and it is the BIGGEST asset in my journey of loss, grief and healing.  I am the same Claudia that posts very often on other threads about my precious son Joey.  I don;t always speak of Scripture.  But when someone makes a comment that they have never heard... of God or the Bible, then I really feel in knowing the Scriptures that I should be able to share in that context.  I am not prostylatizing, as I have been accused of doing.  I was backing up a statement I made with the evidence of actual Scripture after someone questioned that my statement was false or out of context because they had never heard that before.  It's really as simple as that.  I again am not a brow-beater.  Each person;s journey is their very own, and their choice, and I don;t stand to call names or make accusations against anyone for their choices.  That is not what my journey of faith is about.  I admit that my faith is offensive to many, because it does carry intolerance to the many paths, alternative worldviews, and the like.  But I, personally am not here to defend that, nor have I in this thread at any point.  My motto: I live by faith and love and respect others regardless of theirs.  There are many things posted that I don;t believe and that my faith does not speak to, but I do not get in anyone's face to tell them I am offended or that I can't tolerate their view.  It's not necessary here, because you are all absolutely right in saying that this is a place where we come to share our grief journey.  I am very open to how others grieve and heal.  I respect everyone here, because we've made it another day and we continue on a very, very hard journey, seemingly at times impossible.  I have utmost respect for each of you.  And so I leave now feeling that though my motives have never been selfish and I try always to stick to the topic at hand, unless asked otherwise, I better understand that there is great sensitivity that I have disturbed.  I am truly very, very sorry....

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i was afraid of this happening and apologise for even starting this thread. i certainly meant no harm nor hurt feelings to develop out of it, but perhaps it was inevitable.

faith is such a passionate, tender subject. disagreeing is impossible because each feels they 'know' the TRUTH.

i am glad you started a thread, claudia. you should be able to post your feelings regarding anything. we all should. this thread was meant to be a questioning one. that entails questioning theologies that some have no questions about. i suppose that can come across as persecution, but i know i never felt that way when posting.

please forgive me if i offended you in any way.

blessings,

annie

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4everjoeysmom

Aniie,  I am not personally offended or otherwise.  It's ok, really.  I understand the passion and how much people can fired up over faith issues and quesyions.  Like you said though, this thread was started as a questioning thread.  And I actually looking back on my threads felt like I was solely a participant answering questions from my Biblical worldview and Christian faith.  Others answered with their opinions and beliefs.  It generally is the case that when there is not a significant reference to "which god" is being talked about, things start to get fuzzy and then everyone gets in an uproar--usually toward the Christian view, because the Bible is very strong.  It is offensive to many.  But the bottom line it is a foundational truth of my faith, and it is the basis for how I answer any question on faith, just as whatever others believe is the basis for their answers.  I can;t say the Bible is my foundation, but then say, well yeah, I suppose it could be the way others think and believe, because then I would be saying my faith has holes in it--and I don;t believe that.  So, you see, it's a huge Catch 22 for me to share anything of myself here on BI that has to do with who I am by faith, which is why I felt it best to have a specific thread for the people who need to find answers from a Biblical worldview.  My action was not to segregate ourselves, but to hopefully have a place where we too can interject questions and answers without being criticized.  The one thing that greving parents shouldn;t have to endure is that kind of criticism on top of their tremendous pain.  We all are looking for comfort and healing, answers to our questions, and compassion.  I'm thankful that we have options so that hopefully we can all find what we are looking for.

I wish you blessings for peace and comfort along your journey.  -Claudia

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I am just happy to see most of you have embraced your faith. I have not doubted God or placed blame, or questioned God. I only pray to God that He embrace David, and hold him near until I see him again. I also ask that He has reunited David with my firstborn, Mickey, who died shortly after birth 20 years ago.

We follow a tradition of faith called Vaisnavism, and we had a very special, although much different than most Western cultures, funeral service. In our culture, our families members assist in preparing the deceased for their bodily departure. For us, the soul is Eternal, and the body is only its vessel.  My son Nic, who is 19, helped our Priest prepare David's body for cremation. He applied sacred markings, oils, and beautiful flower garlands. There were many special prayers, and Nic, himself, lit the crematorium before he placed David's body in to it.  Nic took on the role of the head of the household, since their father has not been an active particpant in their lives. This was Nic's true entry into adulthood, and I watched him grow up the day he gave his brother back to God. I was so proud of him.

We did witness something very special during David's funeral. When it came time to place his sacred beads in his hand, the Priest softly told David that he was going to give him the beads, and to relax and take them. When the sheet was pulled down, David's hand was no longer stiff, his left index finger was extended. This is how we normally would use our beads. (like a Rosary) I was told this was a very auspicious thing, and what we all saw confirmed to us that David's presence was there in the room, that he saw, felt, and heard us tell him to go with God, and that he accepted this.  David was fortunate to have been given the gift of being taught about God from early childhood, and we were blessed to have been chosen to be this boys family.

God Bless each of you, and all of your children.

With love,

Lisa

David's mama

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Nic taking care of David long ago

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