Religion and loss of spouse

[BBB]

In many religions, they tell you that once your spouse dies then you are no longer married to them. They are no longer your spouse, there is no marriage and that is why you are free to marry again. I have a fundamental problem with this because 1) I have not died and 2) My love for my wife is still very much there. Therefore,  I still very feel much married to her, even though she is gone. Does anyone have problems with this mindset?

[Sparky1]

I have the same sentiment. My wife is still my wife, my love for her is not diminished and it definitely won't stop. She is my soulmate and I want to be with her when it's my turn to go.

[Gail 8588]

I think a lot of factors impact on this.  The age of the surviving spouse, whether there are young children,  the individual circumstances of the surviving spouse, including financial realities of life,  many factors.

I have know people who lost their spouse, who I know had a bond as strong as mine, but who have remarried. They tell me, and I believe them, that like love for a second or third child doesn't diminish your love for your first child, love for their second spouse does not diminish their love for their first spouse. 

So I really don't consider 'not having another relationship' to be any sort of proof of loyalty or commitment to the first spouse. 

For me, I am not looking to ever have a relationship with another man, other than simple friendships. But I am 67 and content to live the time I have left being a doting grandmother and active volunteer, etc.  If I were a young person, or even middle aged, I may very well be open to the possibility of a new relationship. 

I also think that one's feeling on this issue may evolve over time.  In the early year(s) of grief, the surviving spouse may feel adamant that they will never love again.  After the passage of some time, they may shift to being more open to the possibility.  

How each of us feels about this is okay.  How we feel today, may not be how we feel in the future.  That is okay too. 

I think just do what feels right in your heart.  If that shifts over time, be open to that shift in your heart. 

Gail

[Mark loves Sandra]

@BBB and @Sparky1

Well, at the risk of offending someone, this is why I choose not to partake in organized religion.  Exactly how do "they" know anything more than you?  Who are they to tell you how it works?  A person can study religious texts till the cows come home and it won't make them any more knowledgeable about what actually happens when a person dies.  They may say they know, but in the end they actually know just as much as you know.

In the end (almost literally), what you choose to believe is entirely up to you and certainly can't be proven to be any more right or wrong than the next guy's beliefs.

I will love Sandra till my last dying breath, but what that means for me after that last breath . . . . heck if I know.  I have my hopes, but that's just what they are . . . . hopes that I made up.

I hope you guys (and all the others here) are able to take comfort in what you choose to believe.  Your love for your wives is likely as strong as any force we experience in our mortal lives.

--Mark

 

[foreverhis]

2 hours ago, BBB said:

Does anyone have problems with this mindset?

In a way, that's a hard question for me to answer.  The reason is because John and I were raised Episcopalian and Methodist-Episcopalian (a weird mix to be sure) where that is the teaching.  As a child and young adult, I wouldn't have questioned it.

But as we moved away from specific religion to a more universal faith that worked for us, we let go of a lot of that.  IMO (and only mine), we cannot know exactly how the next life/world/heaven works.  Maybe it's true that there is no such thing as marriage as we know it.  After all, love is infinite and can live forever, so perhaps defining it in our world here is not the same.  But I do not see how such a deep bond cannot continue into that mysterious and wonderful unknown. 

I can say this:  I will forever be John's wife.  I am married to him and that's that.  I have faith that when it's my time, he will be there to greet me with open arms and a loving heart.  I have no idea if it will be the same, but I know the bond of love will be there.

Those who believe that marriage in heaven does not exist or is not the same are certainly not "wrong."  If it helps someone find and accept new love here and now, then that's a good thing.  As I have no desire to open my life to someone new, it would be a moot point for me regardless.

Sorry, that's probably not the specific type of answer you were looking for, but that's what's I think.

[LMR]

@BBB & @Sparky1 

I agree with you. I still feel wholeheartedly married and I believe I will always feel this way. I cannot even imagine feeling a romantic interest in anyone else. A soul mate is a one off!

 

[jmmosley53]

I believe that I married until death due us part.  His spirit parted from his body.  Spirits have no bodies they are not sexual beings. 

I consider myself no longer married.  I have to stop counting wedding anniversaries.   BUT, I am still his wife in my mind.

When I die our spirits will be reunited.  At the end of days, God will call out our bodies and we will be judged.

Believing what I believe is my act of faith.  I'm not saying it is TRUTH.  Just what I put together in my head.  Having faith keeps me hopeful.

 

[ScotJ65]

My woman and I were never married but I know I'll never meet anyone like her again. We were meant for one another, and we both knew it right from the start. I guess she'd want me to be happy and possibly meet someone else eventually. But the way I feel right now, that just isn't going to happen. It would be almost as if I was betraying her, because I can feel her presence with me every day. I'm just not ready to let go, and in truth, may never be.

[Perro J]

5 hours ago, BBB said:

Does anyone have problems with this mindset?

No problems at all. Even if I did, the correct advice would be to tell me to stuff it.

Today is 9 months for me. I've had a friend visiting from Argentina in my home this week. He's attempted to console me with some Buddhist ideas, ways of living in detachment from the events of life. I appreciate his intention but I want none of it. I still love my fiancee. I don't see that ever changing because her death kind of froze her into that moment of being someone I loved so deeply and what can happen now to change my opinion of her? My friend thought I should get out and meet new women. He had me talk to a girl he knows in Argentina - a pretty girl who was kind enough to tell me I am sweet. Did he put her up to that? Probably. I don't know. He was trying to help build my confidence maybe. It doesn't matter. She's not her. My love was such a gem that who could measure up? Who out there would I give a fair shake now?  I still love her. Her death doesn't change that at all.

I've had some polarized arguments with people about the existence of a soul. I feel strongly about it - and I can't accept the cold, empirical views of atheism. Especially after cradling her face in my hands as I came to the realization she was gone. Her soul had left. That is the part that is now missing. There is a soul.

Religion is a little harder for me. There is no joy in being alone after losing someone you love. If you were to ask me the most meaningful book of the Bible, I would point to the Book of Job. Job suffers, loses his wife and family amongst a long list of sufferings. Yet his reward for maintaining his faith is a new wife and family later on - and the book falls exceptionally short in explaining how Job managed to navigate all of that. While I admire Job for keeping the faith through all his tests I still have not a clue how to do it.

My love and I got engaged but did not get married, even though her sister tried to see if we could at least put together a civil union in the final days before I had to return to the USA. We were unable to complete that. Nor did I ever get my first marriage annulled through the Church. Anyone is welcome to comment on the technicalities of that. Of what the Church says, of what a court of law would say...in my mind - she is my wife.

And if you disagree with that....stuff it.

[foreverhis]

3 hours ago, Perro J said:

If you were to ask me the most meaningful book of the Bible, I would point to the Book of Job.

This is a bit OT, I think, but I used to love the Book of Job.  Yet it was a closer reading of it as an adult that made me to start to question my faith.  The notion of God using humans to basically win a bet, to prove Job's faith, really began to bother me.  Adding the idea that families are simply replaceable only added to that.  I do understand the moral that our faith should/must not be based on material wealth and success, which is an important lesson to learn.  I can't argue with that.

I believe as you do in the existence of souls/spirits.  That is a very deep part of our faith.

[widower2]

  

11 hours ago, BBB said:

In many religions, they tell you that once your spouse dies then you are no longer married to them. They are no longer your spouse, there is no marriage and that is why you are free to marry again. I have a fundamental problem with this because 1) I have not died and 2) My love for my wife is still very much there. Therefore,  I still very feel much married to her, even though she is gone. Does anyone have problems with this mindset?

I hope this doesn't come out wrong, but it sounds like you're equating being married with the incredible bond and love you had - and have - with your spouse. Anyone who's been in a bad marriage can tell you those aren't necessarily the same.  Marriage is ultimately an earthly construct (not that there's anything wrong with that); love is not. 

 

  

10 hours ago, Gail 8588 said:

I think a lot of factors impact on this.  The age of the surviving spouse, whether there are young children,  the individual circumstances of the surviving spouse, including financial realities of life,  many factors.

I have know people who lost their spouse, who I know had a bond as strong as mine, but who have remarried. They tell me, and I believe them, that like love for a second or third child doesn't diminish your love for your first child, love for their second spouse does not diminish their love for their first spouse. 

So I really don't consider 'not having another relationship' to be any sort of proof of loyalty or commitment to the first spouse. 

For me, I am not looking to ever have a relationship with another man, other than simple friendships. But I am 67 and content to live the time I have left being a doting grandmother and active volunteer, etc.  If I were a young person, or even middle aged, I may very well be open to the possibility of a new relationship. 

I also think that one's feeling on this issue may evolve over time.  In the early year(s) of grief, the surviving spouse may feel adamant that they will never love again.  After the passage of some time, they may shift to being more open to the possibility.  

How each of us feels about this is okay.  How we feel today, may not be how we feel in the future.  That is okay too. 

I think just do what feels right in your heart.  If that shifts over time, be open to that shift in your heart. 

Gail

Bingo, exactly, so well said Gail

 

 

 

[widower2]

1 hour ago, foreverhis said:

This is a bit OT, I think, but I used to love the Book of Job.  Yet it was a closer reading of it as an adult that made me to start to question my faith.  The notion of God using humans to basically win a bet, to prove Job's faith, really began to bother me. 

Full confession I HATE the Book of Job, mostly for reasons stated. But I attribute that to the fallacies of man, not God (remember God didn't write the Bible; man did). I don't buy that God made someone suffer to such extremes simply to prove a point to Satan, which he probably already knew. It's absurd.  

[tlc]

I will absolutely always remain married (joined at the hip) to Terry until my dying day and beyond hopefully! Faith, its all about faith and love and research actually!

[BBB]

"While I admire Job for keeping the faith through all his tests I still have not a clue how to do it."  Perro - Exactly. Neither do I.

"I don't buy that God made someone suffer to such extremes simply to prove a point to Satan, which he probably already knew. It's absurd. " Widower2 - That is quite a bold statement. Not saying you're wrong because at the end of the day anyone's faith and beliefs are just that, faith and belief. We weren't there when the bible was written so none of us can prove that all of it is 100% accurate and 100% the word of God, although many of us are taught that when we were little. 

[KayC]

23 hours ago, Gail 8588 said:

I really don't consider 'not having another relationship' to be any sort of proof of loyalty or commitment to the first spouse. 

I agree.  I remember telling my son years ago, George isn't here, trust me, I looked!  I searched every room in the house, he wasn't here.  I remember doing that.  It's hard to comprehend this all!  It's beyond us to understand another realm in which we have not experienced.

The (Christian) Bible does state there is no marriage or marrying in heaven.  BUT, that said, and given it is perfect, we WILL still know each other and will always love and care for each other!  What that looks like in another realm that my mind cannot comprehend, I do not worry about, I trust God to know what He is doing and I know we will be happy.  We cannot wrap our finite minds around this, esp. with our limited experience.  All I know is, George was my soul mate, through and through, and I believe we were fated to meet and be in each other's lives.  I wish I could have had him here longer, but the next life being for eternity, we won't have to worry about sickness, suffering, bodies giving out, or parting, ever again.  I believe the relationship will be perfect, however it is.  But such is my faith and trust in God.

The Bible also says, whatever brings you comfort, think on these things!

[KayC]

22 hours ago, foreverhis said:

I know the bond of love will be there.

And that is the main thing.

Marriage is for government to make laws by and set policies by...THEY say we are no longer bound when one of us dies, I remember clearly the social security office's pronouncement that we are no longer married.  WTH the callous lady had to voice that, I do not know.  I cried so hard I couldn't see to drive (and I live 60 miles from there) and had to call a friend.  Stupid, stupid lady!  She obviously had no clue what this is like on my end!   

19 hours ago, Perro J said:

I still love her. Her death doesn't change that at all.

 

[BBB]

Well in the bible when Jesus is asked about the man who had 7 wives, Jesus told them that he was married to none of them. Not a fan.

[KayC]

19 hours ago, Perro J said:

And if you disagree with that....stuff it.

15 hours ago, foreverhis said:

The notion of God using humans to basically win a bet, to prove Job's faith

I don't see it that way.

13 hours ago, widower2 said:

it sounds like you're equating being married with the incredible bond and love you had - and have - with your spouse. Anyone who's been in a bad marriage can tell you those aren't necessarily the same.  Marriage is ultimately an earthly construct (not that there's anything wrong with that); love is not. 

I totally get what you're saying!  For sure.

[BBB]

  15 hours ago, foreverhis said:

The notion of God using humans to basically win a bet, to prove Job's faith

I don't see it that way. - So what is your interpretation Kay? I'm not trying to make this into a religious forum but man of us grew up in faith and losing a soulmate (to me) is the ultimate test of that faith and frankly, I struggle with it. Others do as well while others are able to separate the two. Forever said they had a problem with the notion that God was letting Job suffer just to prove a point. You stated that you don't see it that way, please explain. 

[KayC]

I don't want to get up in religious debates here because I hold to the value of everyone's right to choice/belief, but I DO believe God's word is infallible, it's man's interpretation that sometimes is awry.  Who is right and who is wrong we'll all find out someday and then it'll all be a moot point!

I see the trials of Job listed for us to relate to...first, he was an example to us to keep our faith even when everything seems to be against us.  He may not have been perfect but man he sure held steady, even when his wife (if I recall correctly) wanted him to give up!  Second, we ALL go through trials in life and it helps us to know that here is someone we can relate to, when everything seems to be going against us, and I can't speak for everyone, but it sure seems I have had those times!  Third, hold on and it will emerge, it seems things do have a way of working themselves out, even though we cannot see how it's possible.  Losing our spouse/partner definitely qualifies as one of those times.  I did NOT see how I could live without George, yet here I am, nearly 16 years later, and I'm doing "okay."  That is much better than I ever would have expected!  Is it my preference?  NO!  But it is what it is.

God often can use something for His purpose even though He didn't create the situation itself.  He is the master of redemption, imo.

[BBB]

I'm not trying to turn this into a religious debate either but I do believe this - one's opinion is directly related to the strength of their faith. The stronger the faith, the more you trust in God and do not question his motives or what he does. If your faith is not quite as strong, you tend to question and ask why God more often.

 

[Perro J]

I would think it incredulously insensitive to attack anyone's point of view on faith matters on this site. It is not my aim and I would hope anyone reading anything I write here will not takeaway with the sentiment that I am somehow attacking their point of view. It is a touchy topic but I am glad to see it being discussed because it is an issue that comes with our losses.

My fondness for the book of Job comes from the notion that it most directly speaks to one of the great questions and I might even add, in my opinion, to the very purpose of religion: Why do we suffer?

My love, as I have mentioned before, was a very devout Catholic. I joined a Unitarian Universalist (UU) church a year or so before meeting her. There is a joke that asks "What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness and a UU member?" The answer is "A person that knocks on your door for no reason." Another member of this church stated it very aptly. He said "There just isn't enough evidence to convict me of being a Christian." Yet as I watched my love practice her faith, with all its ritual and dogma, I also listened to her explain how the biblical lessons served as lessons to be applied in her daily life and way of living. I respected that. I had no desire to change or influence her beliefs. There is a piece, written by the Rev. Dr. Forrester Church, called The Great Cathedral which I would like to share here. It is a bit long, but I hope someone may find comfort in it. At minimum, I think it gives insight into how I view things.

Imagine awaking one morning from a deep and dreamless sleep to find yourself in the nave of a vast cathedral. Like a child newborn, untutored save to moisture, nurture, rhythm, and the profound comforts at the heart of darkness, you open your eyes upon a world unseen, indeed unimaginable, before. It is a world of light and dancing shadow, stone and glass, life and death. This second birth, at once miraculous and natural, is in some ways not unlike the first. A new awakening, it consecrates your life with sacraments of pain you do not understand and promised joy you will never fully call your own.

Such awakenings may happen only once in a lifetime, or many times. But when they do, what you took for granted before is presented as a gift: difficult, yet precious and good. Not that you know what to do with your gift, or even what it really means, only how much it matters. Awakening to the call stirring deep within you, the call of life itself—the call of God—you begin your pilgrimage.

Before you do, look about you; contemplate the mystery and contemplate with awe. This cathedral is as ancient as humankind, its cornerstone the first altar, marked with the tincture of blood and stained with tears. Search for a lifetime (which is all you are surely given) and you shall not know its limits, visit all its transepts, worship at its myriad shrines, nor span its celestial ceiling with your gaze. The builders have worked from time immemorial, destroying and creating, confounding and perfecting, tearing down and raising up arches in this cathedral, buttresses and chapels, organs and theaters, chancels and transepts, gargoyles, idols, and icons. Not a moment passes without work being begun that shall not be finished in the lifetime of the architects who planned it, the patrons who paid for it, the builders who construct it, or the expectant worshippers. Throughout human history, one generation after another has labored lovingly, sometimes fearfully, crafting memorials and consecrating shrines. Untold numbers of these collect dust in long-undisturbed chambers; others (cast centuries or eons ago from their once-respected places) lie shattered in chards or ground into powder on the cathedral floor. Not a moment passes without the dreams of long-dead dreamers being outstripped, shattered, or abandoned, giving way to new visions, each immortal in reach, ephemeral in grasp.

Welcome to the Cathedral of the World.

Above all else, contemplate the windows. In the Cathedral of the World there are windows without number, some long forgotten, covered with many patinas of grime, others revered by millions, the most sacred of shrines. Each in its own way is beautiful. Some are abstract, others representational; some dark and meditative, others bright and dazzling. Each window tells a story about the creation of the world, the meaning of history, the purpose of life, the nature of humankind, the mystery of death. The windows of the cathedral are where the light shines through.

Because the cathedral is so vast, our time so short, and our vision so dim, over the course of our pilgrimage we are able to contemplate only a tiny part of the cathedral, explore a few apses, reflect upon the play of darkness and light through a few of its windows. Yet, by pondering and acting on our ruminations, we discover insights that will invest our days with meaning.

A twenty-first-century theology based on the concept of one light and many windows offers its adherents both breadth and focus. Honoring multiple religious approaches, it only excludes the truth claims of absolutists. That is because fundamentalists claim that the light shines through their window only...

Skeptics draw the opposite conclusion. Seeing the bewildering variety of windows and observing the folly of the worshippers, they conclude there is no light. But the windows are not the light. They are where the light shines through.

We shall never see the light directly, only as refracted through the windows of the cathedral. Prompting humility, life's mystery lies hidden. The light is veiled. Yet, being halfway in size between the creation itself and our body's smallest constituent part, that we can encompass with our minds the universe that encompasses us is a cause for great wonder. Awakened by the light, we stand in the cathedral, trembling with awe.

One light, many windows. That concept happens to work for me. I understand that it may not work for everyone. When I interpret the religions of the world, past and present, as attempts by our fellow human beings to explain our purpose here, to try and address the questions such as "Why do we suffer?", then I find myself more accepting of them.

BBB, I hope you don't feel I've wandered too far from your original post here - I believe you were really only asking about the religious definitions of your marriage status - but how losing someone we love really does challenge our beliefs, whatever they may be. Religion, as much of a minefield as it can be on internet message boards, is in my mind an important topic during a catastrophic loss such as ours and I commend you for having the courage to post on it. As I respect your belief in her still being your wife, I respect your belief in God, however you may understand God to be. To borrow a line from the Wiccan Creed - An' ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

[ScotJ65]

3 hours ago, KayC said:

All I know is, George was my soul mate, through and through, and I believe we were fated to meet and be in each other's lives.  I wish I could have had him here longer, but the next life being for eternity, we won't have to worry about sickness, suffering, bodies giving out, or parting, ever again.  I believe the relationship will be perfect, however it is.  But such is my faith and trust in God.

Kay, I couldn't have put it any more succinctly. Yes, faith is blind. But my complete trust is in God. I believe He has given my woman her rightful place in heaven, and she'll be waiting for me there. Just as George will be for you.

[foreverhis]

5 hours ago, KayC said:

What that looks like in another realm that my mind cannot comprehend, I do not worry about, I trust God to know what He is doing and I know we will be happy.  We cannot wrap our finite minds around this, esp. with our limited experience. 

Exactly!  We've talked about the difference between religion (as a specific) and faith (as a universal) before.  Believing as we do that we cannot understand or comprehend fully, but that the mysterious next life will be wonderful and that our loves will be there for us is an act of faith that is not bound to one specific religion.  And that comforts me.

[foreverhis]

2 hours ago, Perro J said:

A twenty-first-century theology based on the concept of one light and many windows offers its adherents both breadth and focus. Honoring multiple religious approaches, it only excludes the truth claims of absolutists. That is because fundamentalists claim that the light shines through their window only...

I'd have to say that my exploration of religions and faith was spurred by my father.  He was a science, electronics, and history teacher.  Yet he was also deeply spiritual.  He was a self-taught religious scholar who often would explain how the basis of various religions, not the rituals or dogma, but the foundations themselves could be distilled into a similar pure faith.  That got me to thinking about whether a loving God would punish those who believed differently, who lived good and charitable lives, who were faithful in their own way, simply because they didn't believe in the specific way I (at the time) or others did.  As an adult, I had to honestly answer that no, I could not believe a loving God would do that.  John had come to a similar place on his own, so it was a natural fit for us to explore our personal faiths together.

[Sparky1]

5 hours ago, BBB said:

The stronger the faith, the more you trust in God and do not question his motives or what he does. If your faith is not quite as strong, you tend to question and ask why God more often.

I also have a strong faith, and realize that God has reasons for allowing things to come about. But losing my wife has devastated me, and I admit I ask why. I'm a fairly logical person and I can't comprehend the mysteries of the unknown. I have to have something to stand on, and I can only go by faith.

When my wife was in the hospital I told her that the most important thing that we have is the love and eternal bond between us. I love her and still consider her my wife, and by faith I hope one day to be with her again. Without this hope I have nothing.

[TLN]

On 4/15/2021 at 11:14 AM, BBB said:

In many religions, they tell you that once your spouse dies then you are no longer married to them. They are no longer your spouse, there is no marriage and that is why you are free to marry again. I have a fundamental problem with this because 1) I have not died and 2) My love for my wife is still very much there. Therefore,  I still very feel much married to her, even though she is gone. Does anyone have problems with this mindset?

IMHO, you can only move on when your heart allows you. As for legalities of, say, Church and State, that is its own matter; but when it comes to marrying another when your mind is still a flurry with the madness of grief--personally, I think that is...hard, to say the least; but having said that, perhaps just as hard is bearing the burden alone. I do not think anyone else has a right to tell you when you should be done loving your deceased spouse in favor of a new one; but neither should they prohibit your seeking that new one if your heart is ready. I think only you, and God, know when that is. Blessings, and be well. @TLN.

[KayC]

22 hours ago, BBB said:

If your faith is not quite as strong, you tend to question and ask why God more often.

My faith has always been strong, but when I lost George suddenly and prematurely (to my way of viewing it!) it shook me to the core, as it seems to most of us.  At his funeral I sang, "It is Well (with my soul)" as my statement of faith, but oh how it was tested in the coming year!  Feeling God was a million miles away!  I didn't realize it at the time, but it was my grief filtering Him out, much as we read in Dark Night of the Soul (St. John of the Cross 1500s),  I cried out WHY?! a million times in that year!  I finally quit because I got no resounding answers, I reckon I wouldn't have understood or agree had I gotten one anyway.

[KayC]

20 hours ago, Perro J said:

Why do we suffer?

It is in my times of suffering that I have drawn close to God...it is how we are.  When everything is going great we tend to go our merry way, but it is when we are most in need that we reach out!  It is also in those times of suffering that I learn the most, grow the most.  I'm not saying specifically that that is God's purpose/intent, but that seems to be how it works for me.

I also would never ever want to attack anyone for their beliefs or lack of, I view it strongly as everyone's right to their own choice/decisions.  I can ONLY speak for myself and what I have experienced/learned.

 

[KayC]

18 hours ago, foreverhis said:

He was a science, electronics, and history teacher. 

My son is a genius.  He didn't get it from me, or his father either (as smart as he was!) but it's a fact...I tried to teach him that he was given much and that is not to HIS credit, but he has a responsibility as to what he DOES with it.  He had three engineering degrees, and I can honestly say of all of the people in the world, I look up to him the most!  He is the person I turn to when I want advice.  NOT because he's smart, but because he has the highest character of anyone I have ever known.  He is the wisest person I have ever met.  I am just lucky enough to be his mom, to know him, to have him in my life.  All of this to preface, he has a scientific mind, but does not find it at all to be at odds with his spiritual beliefs, but quite the opposite, that it is supportive in nature.  It's all in how you view and reconcile it.

[foreverhis]

On 4/16/2021 at 11:33 AM, BBB said:

If your faith is not quite as strong, you tend to question and ask why God more often.

And that is a perfectly valid belief.  Mine is different.  John and I never questioned our faith, but we did question the religion we were raised in.  Not as in "It's bad/wrong," but rather, "Is this right for what we believe and our personal faith now?" 

[foreverhis]

8 hours ago, KayC said:

All of this to preface, he has a scientific mind, but does not find it at all to be at odds with his spiritual beliefs, but quite the opposite, that it is supportive in nature.  It's all in how you view and reconcile it.

Absolutely.  It never occurred to me (or my parents, I imagine) that science and faith must be at odds with each other.  My dad and John were two of the smartest and wisest men I've known.  Both analytical and yet very spiritual as well.

[KayC]

Yes, my son too.

And it seems to me that many of us evolve spiritually throughout our lifetimes.  I was not "indoctrinated" by my parents as they were both atheists when I was growing up, but I went to church with a neighbor lady until I was 16, when my dad forbade it.  I resumed going at 19 but went to different churches, ending up back where I started and many years later, changing through evolved beliefs.  No church is perfect as they're made up of people, and none of us are perfect!  But I picked one whose core beliefs were in line with what I believe.  I do like church as I view it as an extended family and have learned much good through attending.  It's a personal choice and I don't think there IS a one-size-fits-all!

Years ago I read an excellent book called Pathways to the Soul.  It talked about how different people are reached spiritually...mine is nature, I don't remember the four (need to re-read it) but I do remember there was liturgy...that is not mine.

[foreverhis]

1 hour ago, KayC said:

I resumed going at 19 but went to different churches,

My parents were okay with, even encouraged, me going to different churches with friends.  At least two Sundays a month, I was at our church where I was an acolyte (late 60s, a really big change even in progressive churches to include the girls).  The others, I could go with friends or sometimes my parents would take us camping and our "Sunday school" would be talking about faith and religion with my dad as we walked through the forest or along the shore and he'd ask us what we thought about things.

We encouraged our daughter to attend services with her friends if she wanted.  By the time she was old enough to think about things for herself, John and I had left our specific churches, but we tried to help her understand what we believed, our personal faith, because we didn't want her to not have a core faith and belief of her own.