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Want to share my experience.


Andy

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Everyone,

You all are an inspiration to me. So many people walking through the same journey, struggling through life, still helping and comforting others. It's amazing.

I think it's normal to look at all the happy couples and feel bad about ourselves. It happens to me too. Maybe with passing time I will be used to it and it wouldn't affect me as much as it does now.

Like most of you, I too am struggling with my emotions on a daily basis. One day I want to go out and help the world , another day I don't even want to get out of my bed. One second I am laughing, the other, I am crying. But I know one thing, I won't quit striving to be the person my Nazim wanted me to be. I will fall and cry, but I will keep moving. So that one day when I meet him again, he could tell me how much he is proud of me. 

If there are two things that his loss has taught me, it is the limitation of my time on this planet and the urgency to do good. 

Thank you all. This is an amazing forum. We will get through this together. Little by little. And as Andy said, be strong, be weak but be alive. Thanks Andy for this qoute.   

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2 hours ago, Sadaf Nazim said:

I think it's normal to look at all the happy couples and feel bad about ourselves. It happens to me too. Maybe with passing time I will be used to it and it wouldn't affect me as much as it does now.

I have that very same hope - I have found myself, and I feel bad for this, seeing people in the neighborhood, just out and about living their lives... and I think THAT IS SO UNFAIR!  How come that person is alive and my Kevin is NOT?!??!?!?!  And seeing happy couples just destroys me.

I hope to pass this stage because I feel so bad for thinking those things.

And I agree with you, everyone here is nothing short of an inspiration.

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10 hours ago, Nads said:

Andy... "be strong, be weak but be alive. Live." ....I find this most profound. I think I going to try to make this my new philosophy of life. Thanks for this!

It's an idea I kind of came across when trying to comfort my best friend. His fiancé father had just passed away. He told me that he was having a hard time being her "rock", he wasn't sure how to always be strong. I told him, "well, you don't have to be her rock, be her her pillow". We sometimes mistake weakness for weakness of character. My daughter was judging herself far to harshly for "trying to be strong for me, but not being able to". I told her that crying, being frightened, confused are all signs of great inner strength. To be able to allow ourselves to hurt, to accept grief and let it wash over us is a true feat of strength. We don't run from it, we don't pretend it isn't there and we don't hide it. We face it, we let it do what it must, we accept it. Personally, I think that indicates a very strong person. 

Your friend, your fellow traveler

Andy

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KMB,

I'm sorry there isn't a grief counselor near you.  I live in the country and there's NOTHING near me!

I read all of your posts and can relate to all of you and appreciate all you have to say.  I wish we had a "like" button!

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17 hours ago, Sadaf Nazim said:

Everyone,

You all are an inspiration to me. So many people walking through the same journey, struggling through life, still helping and comforting others. It's amazing.

I think it's normal to look at all the happy couples and feel bad about ourselves. It happens to me too. Maybe with passing time I will be used to it and it wouldn't affect me as much as it does now.

Like most of you, I too am struggling with my emotions on a daily basis. One day I want to go out and help the world , another day I don't even want to get out of my bed. One second I am laughing, the other, I am crying. But I know one thing, I won't quit striving to be the person my Nazim wanted me to be. I will fall and cry, but I will keep moving. So that one day when I meet him again, he could tell me how much he is proud of me. 

If there are two things that his loss has taught me, it is the limitation of my time on this planet and the urgency to do good

Thank you all. This is an amazing forum. We will get through this together. Little by little. And as Andy said, be strong, be weak but be alive. Thanks Andy for this qoute.   

This thread is a Gold mine.

What you just said Sadaf is pure Gold.  Everything completely reflects my emotional experience and mental framework.

Thank you!

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While I was driving home from work today an ad came on the radio about planning for your funeral arrangements so you wouldn't have to burden your family members. As I don't have any kids I think this might be a good investment as I wouldn't want anyone to have to stress about money etc when I gone. What do you think? Am I just being morbid? My friend said that I'm only 41 and I shouldn't be thinking of anything like that. But my darling had just turned 47 when he left me. I think I should at least put things in place for when my time comes. 

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2 hours ago, KC81 said:

This thread is a Gold mine.

What you just said Sadaf is pure Gold.  Everything completely reflects my emotional experience and mental framework.

Thank you!

It is a goldmine, the people here are golden. Great people who are willing to open up and share, relive, the grief and sorrow of their losses, not only to help themselves, but to bring comfort to others. What beautiful people. 

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16 minutes ago, Nads said:

While I was driving home from work today an ad came on the radio about planning for your funeral arrangements so you wouldn't have to burden your family members. As I don't have any kids I think this might be a good investment as I wouldn't want anyone to have to stress about money etc when I gone. What do you think? Am I just being morbid? My friend said that I'm only 41 and I shouldn't be thinking of anything like that. But my darling had just turned 47 when he left me. I think I should at least put things in place for when my time comes. 

I don't think it's a bad idea at all. Not because something is imminent, but it could bring you peace of mind. Why not? I think putting that "detail" in order is a nice idea. Not only are you taking care of yourself, you're showing great concern for anyone potentially left to see to these things. If it's something you want to do (financially able, etc.) and if it brings you a sense of peace, then I see no down side. It's not morbid. Your husband was 47, my wife 42. We know that sometimes age is irrelevant, we know this well. 

Just my 2 cents, I hope I haven't offended you or anything, I kind of obsess over doing that. 

Be safe and take care

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Andy...you haven't offended me in the slightest. In fact I sincerely appreciate your thoughts. I am seriously considering doing it so I will be looking into it in the coming weeks. 

Thanks for taking time to respond. God bless you. 

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4 minutes ago, Nads said:

Andy...you haven't offended me in the slightest. In fact I sincerely appreciate your thoughts. I am seriously considering doing it so I will be looking into it in the coming weeks. 

Thanks for taking time to respond. God bless you. 

Anytime. Bless you and take care

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8 hours ago, Nads said:

While I was driving home from work today an ad came on the radio about planning for your funeral arrangements so you wouldn't have to burden your family members. As I don't have any kids I think this might be a good investment as I wouldn't want anyone to have to stress about money etc when I gone. What do you think? Am I just being morbid? My friend said that I'm only 41 and I shouldn't be thinking of anything like that. But my darling had just turned 47 when he left me. I think I should at least put things in place for when my time comes. 

Nads

I dont think your weird at all, whats happened to us all has been such a massive life changing inpact on us and it makes us think about our own mortality, i did a similar thing wks after my loves death, i got my will sorted so my two kids would get my estate with no hassles (my love hadnt done a will, he was only 55, and so full of life and fun he'd never got round to doing it) so  i think its brave of you, you are so young to lose your love, i considered myself young at 51 to lose mine but 41 is too young but none of us know whats around the corner in this sometimes cruel world. Keep strong lovely lady and take care x 

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Nads,

There was a funeral place in Eugene, OR (nearby) that had been there for years and they sold pre-funeral arrangements & plots.  The business went belly up and people who needed to bury their loved ones were aghast that although it had been paid for...it wasn't there.  No one answered the phone, calls went unreturned.  I don't know that the legal litigation has ever been resolved.

Perhaps it's best to make sure you have the money saved, will drawn up and everything left with an attorney so it can be dealt with upon your death...I've let my kids know where all of the important papers are, my son even has my passwords and knows where my budget is (he is the executor of my estate) so he can handle things when the time comes.  And I'm doing my best to get my home paid off (hopefully before I die) so he can take his time selling it as I know how hard it is to do everything when you're grieving.

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On 1/31/2017 at 8:36 PM, Sadaf Nazim said:

Everyone,

You all are an inspiration to me. So many people walking through the same journey, struggling through life, still helping and comforting others. It's amazing.

I think it's normal to look at all the happy couples and feel bad about ourselves. It happens to me too. Maybe with passing time I will be used to it and it wouldn't affect me as much as it does now.

Like most of you, I too am struggling with my emotions on a daily basis. One day I want to go out and help the world , another day I don't even want to get out of my bed. One second I am laughing, the other, I am crying. But I know one thing, I won't quit striving to be the person my Nazim wanted me to be. I will fall and cry, but I will keep moving. So that one day when I meet him again, he could tell me how much he is proud of me. 

If there are two things that his loss has taught me, it is the limitation of my time on this planet and the urgency to do good. 

Thank you all. This is an amazing forum. We will get through this together. Little by little. And as Andy said, be strong, be weak but be alive. Thanks Andy for this qoute.   

 

15 hours ago, KC81 said:

This thread is a Gold mine.

What you just said Sadaf is pure Gold.  Everything completely reflects my emotional experience and mental framework.

Thank you!

You are so right!  

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Hope everyone is well, as well as can be anyway. It's been roughy a month since my wife passed. It's a strange sort of thing, to be here, thinking of this state of existence. I was looking at a picture of my wife, she was about 1 month pregnant with our daughter. I couldn't but think that about that moment in time, little did we know, that would be her "middle age". It's such a surreal thought, I know that my new reality is different than my old, but it's as if my past has been altered also. Every photo, every memory will now have a notation added. In this one she had two years to live, this one here there was 7 months. It's horrible, not only has my future been completely lost, now my past has been changed. Just another dimension to this affair. I hate this. 

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soundmankeysman1

Hi Andy,

I'm thinking that kind of thinking will pass as time goes by.  My problem early on was ever time I thought of my wife, the first memories that came up were our last days together.  Those were painful days.  I think our minds cannot control that right now because, as you said, it's a new reality.  As time passes, our minds adapt and protect us better from those bad memories/associations.

At least, those are my hopes...

Mike

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6 hours ago, soundmankeysman1 said:

Hi Andy,

I'm thinking that kind of thinking will pass as time goes by.  My problem early on was ever time I thought of my wife, the first memories that came up were our last days together.  Those were painful days.  I think our minds cannot control that right now because, as you said, it's a new reality.  As time passes, our minds adapt and protect us better from those bad memories/associations.

At least, those are my hopes...

Mike

Thank you. I hope that the shock or realization wears off. It's that "knowing" now, that all those years back, that WAS her middle age years, we just didn't know it, but if I'm to believe in variable possibilities based off of choice or infinite decisions, then I'm left with second guessing everything. Perhaps it's self torture or penance for perceived wrongs I've done, bad decisions I've made. We adopted an older child, at my suggestion, it turned into something very unexpected, nearly tore my family apart. My wife suffered greatly because of it. It's my single biggest regret, and even before my wife's passing, I often apologized to her and our birth daughter. My wife was always insistent that she was as much a part of the decision as I, but I still carried that doubt. And now I stand ready to pass horrible judgement on myself. Was my wife "fated" to die December 31st? Or was it a random tragedy? Either way, my mind is just agonizing over things I have no control over, I'm emotionally, psychologically, and physically drained. I mailed 5 death certificates today. I had to call one of my daughters doctors to let them know. I had to fax my mortgage company even more information to see if they can somehow help me stay in my home. I'm sorry, it seems as if I've wandered off topic. I do that a lot nowadays. Yesterday was ok "ish". Today, I've hit a wall. Tomorrow I hope I can get up. My strength has abandoned me, so I'll be weak for awhile. I'm so tired. 

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Oh Andy I know how those days can be. I have had my share and still do. I can also relate to the immense amount of administrative issues that come along with losing our loved ones. Things we shouldn't have to deal with when we are at our weakest. I'm still dealing with the legalities and business of the estate. There are bank issues, issues from his daughter and even his ex wife. Some people are just evil and that's all I'm going to say on this particular issue for now because I may just go into a rant. 

Today I too am not having a good day. I have been researching what actually happens to a person during a heart attack. It's something I wanted to know since my husband died of a sudden one but never felt strong enough to do it . I'm saddened by what I read and so sorry I wasn't there for him during this and maybe if I had gotten there just a few minutes earlier I could have saved him. Our housekeeper was with him and I am grateful for that but she just didn't know what to do. Maybe I shouldn't have read about this because I back to tears and regret again. 

I'm so sorry my baby that I wasn't there for you. Please forgive me. I love you so much. 

Prayers for a stronger tomorrow. 

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33 minutes ago, Nads said:

Oh Andy I know how those days can be. I have had my share and still do. I can also relate to the immense amount of administrative issues that come along with losing our loved ones. Things we shouldn't have to deal with when we are at our weakest. I'm still dealing with the legalities and business of the estate. There are bank issues, issues from his daughter and even his ex wife. Some people are just evil and that's all I'm going to say on this particular issue for now because I may just go into a rant. 

Today I too am not having a good day. I have been researching what actually happens to a person during a heart attack. It's something I wanted to know since my husband died of a sudden one but never felt strong enough to do it . I'm saddened by what I read and so sorry I wasn't there for him during this and maybe if I had gotten there just a few minutes earlier I could have saved him. Our housekeeper was with him and I am grateful for that but she just didn't know what to do. Maybe I shouldn't have read about this because I back to tears and regret again. 

I'm so sorry my baby that I wasn't there for you. Please forgive me. I love you so much. 

Prayers for a stronger tomorrow. 

Nads, I wish I could help. I know what I'm feeling, and knowing you're in a similar place just, it's heartbreaking, I'd wish this upon no one and would do whatever I could to stop it. 

Yes, some people are insensitive or uncaring. They have the luxury of not having gone through this or having an inability to feel empathy. Some are just thoughtless, but some are mean, spiteful wretches that live for the opportunity to make other people's lives miserable. Useless.  

I did what you did, I "researched" further into what happened to my wife and what things may have been has she survived. It was two hours between the time she really started to complain of her stomach and the time I called 911. I question myself constantly about had I MADE her get up and go the the E.R., would that have helped? The extra two hours? Would she be with me now? But then I read that the aftermath of surviving the last stage of sepsis is horrifying in its own way. Amputations are common, potential colostomy bag, a lifetime of reduced organ failure with cardiac arrest being very common, and survivors often deal with extreme ptsd. Given the choice, my wife would have come back in ANY condition, just to see our daughter again, to try to keep being mom. I would take my beautiful wife anyway God would've brought her too me, but, and please forgive me, please, I'm glad, so very glad my Tracie didn't have suffer even MORE than she did already. I was horrified when the dr, right before the emergency surgery, explained what may happen, and I'll never forget this, the thought ripped through my mind "my God, what else does she have to go through?!"  I'm ashamed I thought that, I feel like I wasn't thinking right, but my dear wife had been through so much, to come back with even more for her mind to cope with, was almost too much for me to contemplate. I would've done ANYTHING to care for her, quit my job, sell everything, just to sit at her side, but seeing her in even more agony? To see more pain put on her? Unthinkable. My wife was a fighter, a courageous, selfless person who was much better than me, and she would've fought on, but the price would've been horrendous. I miss her so much, I come home to an empty house, I wake up to no one, my most trusted, honest, intimate relationship is gone. My partner, my confidant, my refuge from this sometimes very dark world, is gone. How do I continue? I'll continue for my daughter, my parents, physically I'll go on, but without the single most valued and nurtured relationship with that most singular of people, how? Who do I turn to when I need to talk about my day, my worries? Who will tell me "it'll be ok"? The shoulder I cried on is gone. That hand that had always been there to hold me up, to comfort me, it's gone. It's just been a bad day. 

Nads, hang in there. We're still here, for some reason, and we'll find out why at some point. It just hurts so much. 

Love and hugs - Andy 

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soundmankeysman1

Hey Andy,

 

I can relate to the bad days.  We all can.  But they are not permanent.  They're like dark thunderclouds; waves after waves of them it sometimes seems.  And we forget that behind them lies the big beautiful sun; the one thing that makes life here possible.  The one thing that nourishes and warms this planet and it's inhabitants.  

The "sun" of our better days is right there too; hiding behind these dark, bad days.  Got to be.

Try to keep that in mind...

Mike

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1 hour ago, soundmankeysman1 said:

Hey Andy,

 

I can relate to the bad days.  We all can.  But they are not permanent.  They're like dark thunderclouds; waves after waves of them it sometimes seems.  And we forget that behind them lies the big beautiful sun; the one thing that makes life here possible.  The one thing that nourishes and warms this planet and it's inhabitants.  

The "sun" of our better days is right there too; hiding behind these dark, bad days.  Got to be.

Try to keep that in mind...

Mike

Thank you for the encouragement, it's much appreciated and needed. I do keep in mind that these days will come, and that they'll go. Just this horrible place were in. 

 

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Music has always been a source of comfort, joy and inspiration for me. My tastes tend to cover some strange territory, things that don't necessarily go together. One of the more "relaxing" artist I enjoy is Loreena McKennitt. On her release, "the Book of Secrets", she wrote and performed a song entitled "Dante's Prayer". The center piece of this number is so meaningful to me. 

"Cast your eyes on the ocean • Cast your soul to the sea • When the dark night seems endless • Please remember me" 

I absolutely love this song. I'd encourage anyone to look this up, iTunes or YouTube or whatever, and listen. It may not be your cup of tea, but I find it so meaningful.

Whatever it's like where my wife is, I hope she thinks of me.  

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Andy..I will taken a listen to that song. Sounds inspirational. Last night as I lay in bed I wondered if my husband misses me, thinks of me and still loves me. Wish I had a way of knowing. I haven't gotten any "signs" of him being around since he passed. I dreamt him two times only but I feel I need more than that to believe he is looking down on me. 

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1 hour ago, Nads said:

Andy..I will taken a listen to that song. Sounds inspirational. Last night as I lay in bed I wondered if my husband misses me, thinks of me and still loves me. Wish I had a way of knowing. I haven't gotten any "signs" of him being around since he passed. I dreamt him two times only but I feel I need more than that to believe he is looking down on me. 

At this time, I'm not ready to share a few personal experiences that I've had since me wife's passing. I assure you though, that synchronicity, connectivity, time our reality, there's more than we know. I'm not going to be preachy or try to convince anyone of anything, I just want you to know that what I've experienced has given me a calming peace, a knowledge of the "other". The key, for me anyway, has been by NOT looking, but allowing myself to be aware. I think there are "signs" all around us, I think they may be there all the time. Some may be ment just for you or I, but they're there. I've come to believe that we are, on occasion, allowed to see glimpses of "truth". Again, these are just conclusions I've come to based on prior beliefs, my growing understanding of our universe, and things that have happened to me. I'm not advocating that my understanding is correct or could even be proven, that doesn't matter. I will say, that coming from MY point of you, your beloved does think of you, he loves you, he wants you to know "everything is ok". That's the overriding sense I get, that everything is as it should be, and it's okay. 

Love and peace Nads, your friend Andy

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Andy,

Whatever you went through, the good and the bad, it was the two of you and you experienced it together.  You aren't any more or less responsible than her, we do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time.  Sometimes in life the decisions we make are gut based and sometimes they're made with facts we're given, but to some degree with risk and we can't always control or predict outcome.  Just know that what you went through with the adopted daughter was part of you and your wife's shared history.

 

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2 hours ago, KayC said:

Andy,

Whatever you went through, the good and the bad, it was the two of you and you experienced it together.  You aren't any more or less responsible than her, we do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time.  Sometimes in life the decisions we make are gut based and sometimes they're made with facts we're given, but to some degree with risk and we can't always control or predict outcome.  Just know that what you went through with the adopted daughter was part of you and your wife's shared history.

 

You're absolutely correct. Nothing to be done for things done, we often spoke about that chapter in our life, how a "good deed" often doesn't go unpunished. When mired in grief, it's far to easy to blame ourselves for things. I'm guilty of many things, and in my own mind I've been sentenced and the verdict revealed. I'll manage through, I'm just in a rough spot. I need to point my car in a "direction", and go. A little horizon chasing to clear my mind. 

Thank you for the concern and kind words

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18 hours ago, Andy said:

Nads, I wish I could help. I know what I'm feeling, and knowing you're in a similar place just, it's heartbreaking, I'd wish this upon no one and would do whatever I could to stop it. 

Yes, some people are insensitive or uncaring. They have the luxury of not having gone through this or having an inability to feel empathy. Some are just thoughtless, but some are mean, spiteful wretches that live for the opportunity to make other people's lives miserable. Useless.  

I did what you did, I "researched" further into what happened to my wife and what things may have been has she survived. It was two hours between the time she really started to complain of her stomach and the time I called 911. I question myself constantly about had I MADE her get up and go the the E.R., would that have helped? The extra two hours? Would she be with me now? But then I read that the aftermath of surviving the last stage of sepsis is horrifying in its own way. Amputations are common, potential colostomy bag, a lifetime of reduced organ failure with cardiac arrest being very common, and survivors often deal with extreme ptsd. Given the choice, my wife would have come back in ANY condition, just to see our daughter again, to try to keep being mom. I would take my beautiful wife anyway God would've brought her too me, but, and please forgive me, please, I'm glad, so very glad my Tracie didn't have suffer even MORE than she did already. I was horrified when the dr, right before the emergency surgery, explained what may happen, and I'll never forget this, the thought ripped through my mind "my God, what else does she have to go through?!"  I'm ashamed I thought that, I feel like I wasn't thinking right, but my dear wife had been through so much, to come back with even more for her mind to cope with, was almost too much for me to contemplate. I would've done ANYTHING to care for her, quit my job, sell everything, just to sit at her side, but seeing her in even more agony? To see more pain put on her? Unthinkable. My wife was a fighter, a courageous, selfless person who was much better than me, and she would've fought on, but the price would've been horrendous. I miss her so much, I come home to an empty house, I wake up to no one, my most trusted, honest, intimate relationship is gone. My partner, my confidant, my refuge from this sometimes very dark world, is gone. How do I continue? I'll continue for my daughter, my parents, physically I'll go on, but without the single most valued and nurtured relationship with that most singular of people, how? Who do I turn to when I need to talk about my day, my worries? Who will tell me "it'll be ok"? The shoulder I cried on is gone. That hand that had always been there to hold me up, to comfort me, it's gone. It's just been a bad day. 

Nads, hang in there. We're still here, for some reason, and we'll find out why at some point. It just hurts so much. 

Love and hugs - Andy 

Andy, I have been reading your story and it breaks my heart. I just lost my girlfriend only a little under a week ago to a completely sudden, unexpected brain hemorrhage. She and I had dated almost 6 years. 

I too have been asking all of the questions you've asked. She went away with her family for a trip and that's where it happened. Where she was, the nearest medical center was at least a half hour drive away. She had told me before she left that she wasn't feeling well, and she said if she wasn't feeling better by the weekend she'd probably have to cancel her trip. She was a real go-getter and didn't let much bring her down, so for her to say this feels like it should have been a clue to me to intervene somehow. I feel like I should have told her that if she was feeling that bad maybe she should go to the ER or something. I should have maybe encouraged her not to go on her trip, because had she had the incident here, we live only blocks from a major hospital so she could have gotten care within minutes rather than hours. I feel like if I had only been more aware of her feelings and what she was telling me that maybe she'd still have been here with me today.

I also would have done anything for her. When she was in the hospital, still alive but unconscious, I made promises to myself. I told myself that never ever again would I take a single day with her for granted. Never again would I blow her off, tell her I was too busy to do something, anything like that. I would put her front and center for the rest of my life. I would make sure her world was the best world she could possibly live in, bar none. I would have walked through fire and ice more than once just to be with her in a time of need. I had promised all of this to myself, and silently to her, when she was still hanging on. I prayed "if you come back, I will truly be the knight in shining armor you deserve. I will do anything for you, just to keep you safe, healthy and happy. If my life must become caring for you, it will become that. If we are no longer able to do some of the things we love, I'd still cherish those we still can do, because it'd still be with you."

The moment I got the call that she had passed, I literally fell to the floor, buried my head in my arms, and cried and shook and trembled. I felt like a cruel punishment had just been delivered. Somehow I had failed, and even my promises and my own resolutions meant nothing. It was as if some distant voice was saying "too little too late, bub!" 

The fact is that my girlfriend did not suffer. She immediately fell into a coma when the hemorrhage happened, and she never awoke. She never agonized and screamed and writhed in pain, the way some do in terminal conditions. She simply passed, quietly, out of the world. Out of the world I am now trapped in forever, without her, without the love we had and still do have, without the experiences and happy times we wanted so badly to make happen.

Just know that you're not alone. I will probably be asking for a while what I could have done. What I could have said to her when I had the chance. Even if she had to go, even the knowledge it was coming might have been a tiny, tiny comfort, because we could have had that one last talk, that one last promise for each other.

 

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Fzald, first of all, please accept my heartfelt condolences and a wish for you to find peace and acceptance. As you well know, there isn't anything I can say or do that'll make this "better". Advice, an ear to lend, someone to walk in this valley with you, yes, but magic? I'm afraid there isn't any. Each day that goes by, there may a minute or two that gets better, then an hour, then perhaps two. Then you'll slip and fall backwards, sliding into another void of grief. But you'll hang on. Your girlfriend, my wife, the many wives and husbands that have gone on before us, they were secure and proud that they knew we would've died for them, but I think they find much greater joy and love knowing that we will choose now, to LIVE. Not for them, but in honor of them, the spirit they shared with us, that brought us happiness, and sadness, and wonder and heartache. They were human, they had wonderful traits and flaws, and that's what made us love them so desperately, and why they loved us. The things that make us who we are, the good and not so good, we loved them completely, so, don't forget that. We will continue to live, as they chose to live with us, for us, we chose to do the same now. 

I can second guess myself until the end of time, and I may, but it will change NOTHING. No amount of self damnation will bring my wife back, no amount of scrutinizing will give me another minute with her. The 27 years will be all I get. More than some, less than others, but it was OUR time, and I'll cherish every second, good and bad, because it was OUR life, imperfect, flawed, but filled with love, honesty and trust, a comfort and security that comes from that most precious of intimacies. One minute, I hate myself, the next, I'm filled with the totality of what we ment to each other. You'll slowly unwind this twisted mess you're in, it'll take time and different paths, no one but you knows exactly how you feel, and only you can decide what "healing" means for you. No timetable, no rules, no formula. Remember to take care of yourself, eat, stay hydrated, reach out to family/friends when in need, and know that any regrets, any guilt, or any "missed chances" are now fully forgiven, completely understood and all is well. You have to now "forgive" yourself, and that can be tough, even when there really isn't anything to forgive. 

Hang in there, hope is NOT lost, may you find comfort and peace. You aren't alone, friend. 

Andy

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Andy, 

Thank you so much for your kind words. It makes so much sense - we do love them because they're imperfect. I have always had a belief - and I told it to my girlfriend a lot - that it's the fact that she's not perfect, that makes her perfect. If she were perfect, if she actually were 100% of what I wanted and nothing more, nothing less, it'd actually be boring. The fact that she was most of what I wanted, but there were things I needed to be for her that SHE wanted... That is what made me love her 100%. That she could be all that I really needed without being everything I wanted, and that I could be all of what SHE needed without being everything she wanted. 

Tonight I've been being reminded of many of our relationship conversations - when she would tell me how much she loved me and why, when she would playfully say "I'm glad you ___ because I could never date someone who wasn't", or when she would tease me and tell me that I'm not being the perfect guy, and then laugh and kiss me when I'd get that concerned expression. I know she loved me, and I love her still.

 

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3 hours ago, fzald said:

Andy, 

Thank you so much for your kind words. It makes so much sense - we do love them because they're imperfect. I have always had a belief - and I told it to my girlfriend a lot - that it's the fact that she's not perfect, that makes her perfect. If she were perfect, if she actually were 100% of what I wanted and nothing more, nothing less, it'd actually be boring. The fact that she was most of what I wanted, but there were things I needed to be for her that SHE wanted... That is what made me love her 100%. That she could be all that I really needed without being everything I wanted, and that I could be all of what SHE needed without being everything she wanted. 

Tonight I've been being reminded of many of our relationship conversations - when she would tell me how much she loved me and why, when she would playfully say "I'm glad you ___ because I could never date someone who wasn't", or when she would tease me and tell me that I'm not being the perfect guy, and then laugh and kiss me when I'd get that concerned expression. I know she loved me, and I love her still.

 

The fact of our humanity is that it's  both the good things and the pain that makes us who we are. Genetics play a role, but we are (I believe) more of a sum of our experiences. We all have flaws, a "bad" side, but it's the desire to overcome those things, to better ourselves, that's where we find "grace". 

Your love for her doesn't end because of her tradgedy, there will be a place within you that'll be reserved just for her. When I met my wife, she stole my heart, so when she passed away, she took a piece of my heart with her. I gladly let her have it all those years ago, it belongs to her. 

Find solace in those special memories, and share them. Talking about her will do wonders for you. It puts it out there, it makes you less anxious about bringing her up. Your true friends will listen, let you cry, let you talk nonstop about your beloved. But please, allow yourself to speak about her. It'll make you feel so, so much better..

keep safe and just keep pushing. 

Andy

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In my other grief forum there is a topic about "What ifs" that I think is relevant here.  I hope you'll read it, I've responded to the subject there.  Feeling guilt or what ifs is so common in grief, but we can't accept it as final verdict.
http://www.griefhealingdiscussiongroups.com/index.php?/topic/10349-all-the-what-ifs/

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KayC, 

Thank you for that link. I think it's our natural response to any tragedy, disaster or even "small" things, like spending ill advised money or having a minor car wreck. We automatically start trying to figure out where we went "wrong". We look for reasons, excuses, explanations or blame. In these cases, the loss of our loved ones, "what if's?" tend to be regrets. Why didn't I see this? How could I have been so blind? What fault am I to assume for this? I think maybe that we do this because accepting the alternative is so sobering. That being that we really have no power over the world around us. This way, we get to imagine that we in fact could've "saved" them, had we only seen the signs or clues. We can hold on to the idea that we have control. Fact is, we don't. One of the biggest components of our loss is seeing, in a very significant way, we didn't lose control, we never had it. I can control my decisions, my attitude, what I choose to say or not say to people, I can choose to work or stay in bed. However, I have no real control over anyone else, no control over bad genetics, the prevalence of disease carrying microbes, viral infections, drunk drivers or planet killing meteors. I had no control over what happened to my wife. None. And besides losing the most wonderful person in my life, I've also been forced to see through the illusion of control. It bad on top of bad. Of course, this is my interpretation of why I feel the way I do, everyone else may come to different conclusions. I do imagine another 3 hours may have made a difference, but I don't know that, but what I do know is that it doesn't matter. She isn't coming back. My daughters mom is never coming back. My daughter does need her dad, she needs him to remain focused and able to shoulder whatever is in store for us, and Lord willing, THAT, I can control. 

Bless you, peace and love

Andy

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Every day I have had what-if questions go through my head. She wasn't feeling too good the last week I'd seen her - what if I'd forced her to go the hospital and get a scan? What if I had really discouraged her from going on her trip, so she'd still have been here in town, less than 5 minutes away from a high-class medical facility instead of 30-40 minutes away from a regional hospital? What if I had simply actually treated each day like it was our last, rather than just putting that aside as a figure of speech?

You're right, though. It doesn't matter. Nothing I wish now can bring her back. That finality is the hardest part of it all. Grieving a death is quite possibly the hardest form of grieving, because of that finality. You don't get to circumvent grief. You don't get to delay it. You don't get to try to work out a way to avoid it and fix things. The person is gone. It's over, and nothing can fix it. That means the only way through the grief... is through.

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46 minutes ago, fzald said:

Every day I have had what-if questions go through my head. She wasn't feeling too good the last week I'd seen her - what if I'd forced her to go the hospital and get a scan? What if I had really discouraged her from going on her trip, so she'd still have been here in town, less than 5 minutes away from a high-class medical facility instead of 30-40 minutes away from a regional hospital? What if I had simply actually treated each day like it was our last, rather than just putting that aside as a figure of speech?

You're right, though. It doesn't matter. Nothing I wish now can bring her back. That finality is the hardest part of it all. Grieving a death is quite possibly the hardest form of grieving, because of that finality. You don't get to circumvent grief. You don't get to delay it. You don't get to try to work out a way to avoid it and fix things. The person is gone. It's over, and nothing can fix it. That means the only way through the grief... is through.

Absolutely, and another of its terrible aspects is that grief, being so different according to the individual, makes the process even harder. We can all share similar things, we can relate to one another, but only YOU loved her the way you did. Only I loved my wife the way I did. Only we understood what they meant to us, and how those things effect us, what meant more to us than other things. So the blueprint for my "healing" won't look exactly like your blueprint. Other than (God please forbid) losing my daughter, this will be the single most devestating loss I'll experience. My parents are both alive and very healthy and active. I know though, that they have fewer days ahead than behind, it's just the facts. But when they do go, it'll be in the natural, expected order of things. My wife dying at age 42? Not expecting that one. So this has been catastrophic. My daughters world flipped upside down and inside out. My heart breaks every time I look at my beautiful daughter. I think of all the milestones in her life that her mom won't be there for. Marriage, children, finishing her education, getting that "dream job", all the things you pick up the phone and call your mom about. Those thoughts bring tears to my eyes faster than anything. 

I'm sorry, I've drifted again. I find myself doing that much more often now. Second guessing ourselves and having almost this "need" to hold ourselves responsible for what happened is normal. Doesn't make it easy or more acceptable, but at least we know we're feeling things that fall into that "normal" range. We have to divorce ourselves from the idea we somehow failed our loved ones, that we made a mistake. We didn't. We were just living our lives. You wouldn't hold your girlfriend responsible if you had died in a car crash or from cancer, so why would we blame ourselves for things equally as unknowable? The fact is, we don't have control. We never did, and that's a terrifying realization. This could happen again. To another loved one or us. That's the world that's been revealed to us, we know the truth now. We have NO control. I do however, hope that this grants me wisdom and understanding. To slow down, to appreciate more, hate less, love honestly and unconditionally, honor my wife's legacy of forgiveness and selflessness, and to pass that on. To my daughter, my friends, potential new friends and even strangers. I'm still alive, so I guess I'd better not waste any of my time, I need to be useful. 

Today wasn't as horrible as some recent days. I may not feel the utter despair 24/7, but the loneliness never leaves, not even for a moment. I'm afraid that'll be my new companion from here on out. But at least I only cried twice today. 

Peace my friend

Andy

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The lack of control is a big part of it. We blame ourselves because we want to feel that we had the ability to control the situation and failed to do so. Even though it's downing ourselves, it does at least let us feel we still have control, and it's our own fault for not using it.

My girlfriend valued her autonomy. She was very firm in that she was her own person, and that we together were two people who formed a great couple. She was not into that "two souls becoming one" idea. But that doesn't mean she loved me any less. In fact I would argue it made our relationship even stronger, because in her case she chose to love me. She was in control of her own choices, and she chose to love me because of what I brought into her life. 

I mourn not only the loss of her on this world, but even for her herself. She tried to keep her own life in control, and ended up losing it suddenly, completely out of her own control as well. Nature, I guess, has a cruel way of reminding us how little control we have. For someone who was so in charge of themselves and so driven on her own, she was ultimately shown the absolute indifference of the universe in her desires. She wanted to live, I believe this 100% completely and fully. Even in her last statement to me, which was "I'll see you next week!". Someone who was not intending to live would not say that. Not to mention all the plans we had discussed, even as recently as a week before her passing. She was high on life, living it fully, and was the farthest thing from ready to go as there could be.

 

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You loved her because of the spirit of independence. It's probably one of many things that made her "the one" in your eyes. That's the thing people don't quite get. One of many things actually, but the many reasons you love someone are the same reasons we grieve the loss of that someone. It makes this all so much harder. A young guy at my job, probably 20 years younger than myself, told me that he had an idea of what I was going through because "me and my wife are having a rough time and haven't been together in about three days". I hope to God I never sounded so stupidly insensitive as to suggest these two things are even similar. 

I have no doubt she wanted to live with every fiber of her being, just as my wife did. Things didn't work out for either of us, I'm afraid. What a sorry state we're in, yes? Sigh...

peace and comfort 

Andy 

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Just an aside here, just some concerns I'm having more than anything.

Tomorrow, for the Super Bowl, my daughter and I have been asked, actually we're the reason, to come to a gathering of old friends to watch the game. Years ago, when our daughter was 2-5 years of age, this was a frequent occurrence, having get togethers with this circle of friends. As people do, we drifted apart, families became the priority, time goes by. My wife died. Now they want to restart this tradition. I have mixed feelings about it. Not sure if I'm right in feeling the way I do. Some of you might have some insight into this. First of all, I've not been around these people in years. They are all dear friends, but from another chapter of my life. Largely absent during my wife's "sick" years, we really don't know one another like we did. I'm afraid I won't "connect" with them. The second thing is that the only reason this is happening is because Tracie passed away. So that's going to be a rather large elephant in the room. I'm not sure how I feel about that. The third thing I'm worried about is being the guy who brings everyone down, not on purpose, but by not laughing or carrying on like everyone else. I hope I'm making sense. I'm not saying I won't laugh or enjoy certain things, but I know for a fact that I'm not going to be what I once was. I will try, mostly for the sake of my daughter, to relax and enjoy things. This is the first Super Bowl in roughy the last 25 years without my wife, and that's something I can NOT ignore. We enjoyed just sitting and watching sports. We weren't big "fans" or crazy sport nuts, unless it was watching our daughter play soccer, but just being together was part of our "heaven", just watching a game. 

So, anyway, I'm apprehensive and anxious, and just looking for some insight or advice that might help. 

Thank you all as always, 

Andy

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23 hours ago, Andy said:

What fault am I to assume for this? I think maybe that we do this because accepting the alternative is so sobering. That being that we really have no power over the world around us.

I hadn't thought of that but maybe you're right...only I think our power is limited, there are some things we have no control over.  A drunk heads down a freeway the wrong way and hits us...we couldn't avoid it.  Our spouse dies and we never saw it coming.  Our house burns down.  Many things unavoidable or at least unforeseeable.  But then there are good things that seem to randomly happen too, not only bad things.  The fact that I even met George, the person I most connected with, the person I consider to be the love of my life...perhaps it was fate, I don't know, it wasn't of our doing, we met and it was amazing.

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18 minutes ago, KayC said:

I hadn't thought of that but maybe you're right...only I think our power is limited, there are some things we have no control over.  A drunk heads down a freeway the wrong way and hits us...we couldn't avoid it.  Our spouse dies and we never saw it coming.  Our house burns down.  Many things unavoidable or at least unforeseeable.  But then there are good things that seem to randomly happen too, not only bad things.  The fact that I even met George, the person I most connected with, the person I consider to be the love of my life...perhaps it was fate, I don't know, it wasn't of our doing, we met and it was amazing.

About two years before I started dating my girlfriend, I had come off a brutal breakup with my ex. I thought the world was over. I grieved. I cried. I thought I was worthless as a person and as a boyfriend. I thought a lot of things.

I slowly pulled myself out of the mud and started trying to live life again about four months in. For those four months though I spent the majority of my time moping and crying. I isolated myself. I barely ate or drank. I did the absolute minimum to survive.

As it turned out, about one year after I broke up was when I originally met my girlfriend, but we were just friends and didn't know each other yet. I put her into the category of friend, and moved forward. I did meet another girl later that year and actually tried dating her, but I quickly realized I didn't feel as strongly as I thought and we ended things amicably.

It would be the next year that I would finally start dating my girlfriend. We stayed together for 6 years, until she passed a week ago.

Sometimes they say God, or the universe, is clearing away things to open opportunities for better things. I do believe this was the case for my two exes. But I just can't see how the universe could take my lovely girl from me, to make room for anything. Even if it did, that's not fair to her and the life she wanted...

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5 hours ago, KayC said:

I hadn't thought of that but maybe you're right...only I think our power is limited, there are some things we have no control over.  A drunk heads down a freeway the wrong way and hits us...we couldn't avoid it.  Our spouse dies and we never saw it coming.  Our house burns down.  Many things unavoidable or at least unforeseeable.  But then there are good things that seem to randomly happen too, not only bad things.  The fact that I even met George, the person I most connected with, the person I consider to be the love of my life...perhaps it was fate, I don't know, it wasn't of our doing, we met and it was amazing.

Yes, limited. I don't believe in coincidence, and I don't really think luck exists the way we think it does. Good and bad, love and evil, I think these things do exist, they both happen to each of us. How we react or deal with each is in our limited control. I met my wife, I was meant to, we had our daughter as we were meant to. My wife got sick, our adoption went wrong, my daughter suffered injuries, I was laid off from my job of 17 years and my wife, my beautiful wife, passed away. Was this all "meant to be"? If I accept the good being meant to happen, then I suppose I have to accept that the bad is also "meant to be". I have trouble dealing with that concept, but that might just be my limitations. I don't think I'm meant to be alone, sitting here in my house by myself, (a so called planned super bowl get together fell through) with nobody to enjoy the game with. My "meaning" is hopefully more than this pitiful existence. 

Today has been very "off". I don't know how to explain. My daughter and I had some communication issues earlier, I came across angry, and I was, but not at her. Then my wife's family rubbed me the wrong way, and I'm having some very serious issues with their "behavior". A group of old friends had asked us to participate in a super bowl party, just in memory of my wife, and those plans fell apart. I may just be whining. It's so cruel, you have a day or two and you think you're making strides, then you have a bad day and it feels like you've gone backwards. The worst part? I think my dear Tracie would be a little disappointed in me today. I'm not experienced with losing my wife, so I'm afraid I'm horrible at this. I don't want to be good at this, I don't want to be an expert. I hate this, HATE it all. I get angry, I feel lost, I cry, I feel "ok", I think I'm not doing good by my daughter, I'm utterly alone, my one fan, my biggest supporter that I relied on for assurance is not here, and today I want to just fall apart. What am doing wrong? Why the hell can't I get this right? Most days I think I'm managing, but today, I've been useless. I just want my wife to come home, I just want her to take care of me, to tell me I'll be ok, but I can't stop crying and this pain is getting so terrible. I miss you so much

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Andy, I have been having the same stuff happen.  After the first two or three weeks of complete and total shock and numbness, then pain...I feel like it's two steps forward, one step back.  Then one forward and two back.  Some days I get things done, others I can't even get out of bed.

This whole thing is just awful.  For all of us.

I'm sorry also to see that we have yet another in our boat, Fzald :(  Sorry to hear of your loss as well.

 

One day at a time.

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On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 1:22 AM, Nads said:

 

To all, none of this is meant to happen to us its too cruel, 20th novi found my partner dying at the bottom of my steps, i was in bed when i heard him fall, i rushed to find him, blood coming from his ear, he had a massive brain injury and a broken neck, he died in hospital dec 2 aged 55 with me and his 2 daughters by his side, he never regained conciousness from the accident we could never tell him how much he meant to us, all that just thru falling down the steps so how can that have been meant to be, from the accident to dec 2, i had so much hope, i'd thought about it all, i was going to quit my job, have our home adapted so i could look after him no matter how disabled he would have been, we had such strong love for each other that i wanted to look after him as he would me if it was the other way round, i wish it had av been me and then i wouldn't av to live this torture without him, but tothink of him going through this hell makes me feel bad for that, i have to live in our house, up and down the steps, picturing him lying there as he was on that sunday night. I cant even think straight as to whether i want to keep living here ot move, i am not wealthy and dont have so many options, for now i am staying and have comfort with his things around me, i feel him with me.

Its been 2 & half months since the accident and im doing my very best to get through, im back at work now ive joined a gym, im trying to plan my wknds doing stuff with family or friends because to me wknds are the worst, i am doing all of that but with a deep heavy heart and a dark cloud of sadness around me, but im doing it for him and my own 2 kids and most days are a struggle but i wont become a victim of this terrible grief, i hope in time that we all get strong, i identify with so much that is said on this sight, we are all like startled little rabbits, in so much shock, pain, despair, anger,  just trying to muddle through to some sort of normality and its so difficult,  i feel for you all so much, its so devastating a thing to happen to us ordinary people, it was never meant to happen it just did happen because life can be so cruel as we all know, lets all unite and have hope in our hearts and minds for the strength to get through. Love to you all x

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Andy..those "off" days do come. These days make you feel like you will never make it through and issues seem to snowball. I have had my share of them and still do. Next week will make it four months since I lost my Stan. I had a bad weekend. Felt I was making progress but certain things happened which made me burst into tears almost instantly. On Saturday I was driving home when I noticed there was a funeral taking place at church. The hearse had just arrived. I absolutely froze when I saw this. All the emotions I went through for my husband's funeral came rushing back especially the panic I felt when I saw the hearse at his funeral. I eventually pulled myself together and drove home in tears. I was sad all day yesterday. Just curled up and tried to look at movies all day. I was doing fairly well when I had another trigger which instantly brought the tears. I miss him so much. I woke up this morning and the feeling has carried over. Now I must drag myself to work and smile through it all. 

Those "off" days do come but they come less frequently with time I suppose. The sadness is always there but I am getting better at dealing with it. I wish I could just stay in bed all day but I know that will make me feel worse. At least I'm distracted at work. I know this is going to be a though week because I have some legal matters considering the estate to deal with. 

Please take care and my prayers are with you my friend. 

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Andy,

I'm sorry yesterday was so hard for you...maybe just tell your daughter you're not upset with her, it's losing your wife that has you upset so she doesn't think it's her.  It makes it hard for us to deal with things that once we would have let roll off our back.  No one can understand this hell until they've lived in it and we wouldn't wish that on anyone.

4 hours ago, Meesh said:

i have to live in our house, up and down the steps, picturing him lying there as he was on that sunday night. I cant even think straight as to whether i want to keep living here ot move, i am not wealthy and dont have so many options, for now i am staying and have comfort with his things around me, i feel him with me.

Meesh,

That's hard.  I'm glad you find comfort among his things, maybe leave decision making for "someday" and for now draw comfort from his things being around you.  

Nads, 

I hope all goes well with the legal matters, I know it's tough to deal with these things when all we want to do is pull the covers over our head.

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Nads, Sending prayers to you to help you cope with your week. I got a letter from the attorney a few days ago. Some information required yet to close out my husband's estate. I don't want to do it. My husband would know the answers, so I'm afraid of not making the right decisions.  I've hated every day since he has been gone. I have to do these things for him. My last gift to him.

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Thank you, KayC. We all need praying over, you are a kind soul. I hope we hear God's answers and those from our partners in Heaven.

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KayC, KMB...thanks for your words of encouragement. I really hate having to do things my husband used to do. It makes me sad every time I have to make a decision or attend to things that he would normally do. I'm keeping busy at work today but have a meeting with my lawyer after work. My lawyer has been a godsent but I still dislike having to deal with these things. 

KMB, I'm sure you will make the right decisions. Just pray and it will come to you. 

God bless. 

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16 hours ago, Stonesie said:

Andy, I have been having the same stuff happen.  After the first two or three weeks of complete and total shock and numbness, then pain...I feel like it's two steps forward, one step back.  Then one forward and two back.  Some days I get things done, others I can't even get out of bed.

This whole thing is just awful.  For all of us.

I'm sorry also to see that we have yet another in our boat, Fzald :(  Sorry to hear of your loss as well.

 

One day at a time.

Stonesie, 

Thabk you, its a comfort that others "understand" what this is like, but I hate that others have the experience to "understand". Forwards only to go backwards, it's maddening. One day at a time indeed. 

Bless you and take care

Andy

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14 hours ago, Nads said:

Andy..those "off" days do come. These days make you feel like you will never make it through and issues seem to snowball. I have had my share of them and still do. Next week will make it four months since I lost my Stan. I had a bad weekend. Felt I was making progress but certain things happened which made me burst into tears almost instantly. On Saturday I was driving home when I noticed there was a funeral taking place at church. The hearse had just arrived. I absolutely froze when I saw this. All the emotions I went through for my husband's funeral came rushing back especially the panic I felt when I saw the hearse at his funeral. I eventually pulled myself together and drove home in tears. I was sad all day yesterday. Just curled up and tried to look at movies all day. I was doing fairly well when I had another trigger which instantly brought the tears. I miss him so much. I woke up this morning and the feeling has carried over. Now I must drag myself to work and smile through it all. 

Those "off" days do come but they come less frequently with time I suppose. The sadness is always there but I am getting better at dealing with it. I wish I could just stay in bed all day but I know that will make me feel worse. At least I'm distracted at work. I know this is going to be a though week because I have some legal matters considering the estate to deal with. 

Please take care and my prayers are with you my friend. 

Nads, 

That must have been horrible, seeing the hearse, reliving that day all over again. I'm so sorry. My triggers, so far, have been relegated to images in my mind and, oddly enough, going to buy groceries. It's so strange, I get so nervous and anxious, I start to "fidget" with my necklace (our wedding rings are on it), my hands, I can't wait to leave. I'm not sure why it's this particular thing. We went everywhere together, nothing "special" about this. I think it might be proximity of other people? There tends to be a tighter concentration of people, so maybe that's it, I don't know. 

I hope the day goes as easy as possible. I don't have those particular issues, but I know that just having to handle these affairs are so emotionally and physically draining, something I'm not sure other people can quite appreciate. And going to work, putting on the "front", I get that all too well. I wish I had a "release" option, to just start over, no familiar faces, but that's just wishful thinking. 

Peace and love my fellow traveler, 

Andy

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KayC,

I've had to explain to my daughter, after my "episode", that all of my anger, confusion, fear and all the other emotions I'm having trouble with is a result of losing my wife and are not because of anything she's done or anything she's said. I feel absolutely terrible about how I get, I have these upwellings of emotion, they hit me, they completely disarm me. One of our two dogs is an 18 year old mix breed. She had a neurological episode back in September, was not expected to live. She's still alive. I remember telling my wife, soon after our dog began to recover, that "I don't believe she's going to make it until Christmas". I find myself getting angry at the idea that this dog (whom I love very much, best dog ever) is still alive, against all odds, but my WIFE is gone?!? It fills me with such incredulous emotions, it breaks me down into tears. I hate myself for being angry that this most loyal of friends is alive, but Tracie is gone. Those are the kinds of things that hit me, not rational, not productive, but nothing about this experience has been rational. 

I hope you've had a better day, I hope you've found the comfort you've given me. Thank you

Andy

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