Grief & Healing from a Christian-Biblical Worldview

[fujismum]

Hello everyone,

We went away for a few days- first trip as a threesome and not a family of four. We did have times of fun and laughter but it is not the same, and never will be.We have to get used to this and accept it however much we fight against this new reality.It was the first time I felt a glimpse of joy and felt we just might survive this awful loss but it has taken 18 months to get that glimpse. 

Oneta, like Claudia you two seem to have a amazing faith - I am quite in awe of you! But you were honest and shared that you also feel God seemed far away at times., and that really helped me. I've been thinking a lot about being tried by fire, and that if my faith is real and lasting then it will stand this experience and come out all the more precious for it. It's easy to have faith when all is going well isn't it? I thought so long as I prayed for my two  son's protection everyday, covered them with prayer, loved them and cared for them, God would somehow honour me by protecting my family in a bubble of safety.I almost felt he "owed me" that in return for me following Him and doing my best to serve Him. I have had to learn fast that it just isn't like that but I  continue to really struggle with this. When you see others who never pray for their kids or thank God for them,and for whom God is just a swear word- yet they are not touched by the tragedy of losing a child- it does seem so unfair.

I think all of our children must have found each other in heaven and are having a wonderful time together with God. From the moment I knew Jamie had been killed I felt absolutely no sense of his presence here, he had completely gone from this world and I trust that he has gone to be with God.No signs, no sense of him being near- he is no longer here but with Jesus. I have powerful memories and can "see " him in my minds eye but I know he has gone to be with God. It's just so hard accepting that this is better for him and all our precious sons and daughters  than to be here with us in this life.

Much love to all, especially Claudia as you have so many concerns about your family.

Anne

[4everjoeysmom]

Anne, THANK YOU and God Bless you!  I'm so glad to hear that you found some moments of joy on your trip.

A wise man once told me that with regard to those that seemingly, unfairly or unjustly "get it all":  "Perhaps for the one who does not believe, sadly their blissful life on Earth will be the closest they ever get to experiencing Heaven."  I will never forget those words.  Can you imagine suffering for eternity with glimpses of "what could have been for eternity" yet having chosen the good life on Earth over the promises of Jesus?  It's mind boggling...  but then there are those that suffer and follow other paths as well...  I can't even imagine....  I'm thankful for this Faith.

Hugs, Claudia

[wyomingsal]

Claudia, I will pray for your mother and her husband.  How sad are the ravages of sin and death on the physical body while we are still here on Earth.  May God's spirit fill both of them with peace and joy. 

I also don't look too hard for signs from my boy.  The day he was lost in the river, I already knew he was gone.  Gone to be with the Lord.  No hope of finding him alive.  Most parents keep hoping and praying the child to be found alive but I already knew.  It was so strange.  I almost felt guilty not having hope like a "good mom" should.  I think God let me know that my son was gone from this earth.  No signs or presence of my son here on earth.  I think if we do get a dream or something from our child, it would be through the power of our Lord Jesus allowing it.  I believe people can receive dreams, but I haven't.   God used dreams in the Bible many times.  Can focusing on trying to feel the presence of our children become an Idol?   I think we can worship our dead children instead of our Lord Jesus if we are not careful.   I find myself talking and almost praying to Joshua sometimes.    Why would I pray to a created being?  I have caught myself falling into that trap and realize that if Joshua can hear me, it is only through the Lord Himself.  I will pray that Jesus give any messages to Joshua since they are together.  "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."  I know where my boy is.  I just miss him so.

I have not been posting much recently.  I have been very emotional these past few weeks.  I hate it when you think you are doing ok and then the pain and grief just about knocks you over with the intensity and sadness you feel missing your child. 

 There is a song I heard recently on KLOVE a Christian radio station called "I can only Imagine."  It about how the singer will react when he gets to Heaven.  He asks questions like,  "will I dance for you Jesus?  and Will I speak or will I not say anything.  Will I fall on the ground in amazment?"  I can't think of the singer right now but the song is really cool.  All we  can do right now is imagine how we will react.  All we can do in imagine how happy our children are. I can't wait for the day when I can be there with my son in the presence of our Lord.

Sal

[wyomingsal]

Here is the link to the song I can only Imagine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S70gwFcSK9k

[4everjoeysmom]

Yes, Sal--  I can Only Imagine by Mercy Me.  A beautiful song!  Another i like so very much, but always brings tears is "Never Been More Homesick Than Now", by Casting Crowns.  I remember on Joey's past birth date I had just said so long to a group of guests we hosted here and was doing clean up afterward.  I played some songs that Joey liked listening to when we used to commute together one summer that he worked for me.  And there were other songs, including the Casting Crowns one.  I cannot hear that song and not think those very same words as my own heart.  There is a beautoful song of worship that I love as well, called Love Song For A Savior by Jars of Clay.  If you can find these songs, take a listen.

THANK YOU also Sal, for your prayers and very compassionate post.  It's so very hard knowing my mom is alone at home and in such agonizing pain over losing her life mate to Alzheimers.  It is a horrendous disease.

My husband just got called away from home for a bit.  Apparently there has been a 1000 meters of mountain that came crashing down in a mudslide very close to us.  It most likely has affected our water source, a water line to a spring inside the mountain.  Looks like we are going to have some water recovery to do, which I have no idea what that will entail.  It seems we get one issue solved here and another comes in like gangbusters.  Weve been having power outages like crazy, and a group just donated finds for a generator, which arrived 2 days ago.  Yay!  Now the water...  Life here is so simple, but so hard at the same time.

If all would please help us to pray for our water situation, I would be so grateful.  One thing about having issues like this is I stay too busy to grieve so much (for myself, for my mom, etc.)  I pray constantly, but the busyness and stress keeps me moving.  It's when i sit still that the walls shout.  You know?  Anyway, not having running water or clean water is the most common issue in our area.  And it looks like we just joined the ranks for a while...  You all are so precious, and I am praying for you as well.  Love and Hugs, Claudia

[misshimstill]

Hello, all.  I just looked back to see when I last posted.  It was the 12th and today is the 20th.  I didn't realize it had been that long.

Claudia, I'm like you about all the new threads that are getting started.  I almost wish they hadn't given us the ability to start new threads because, as you said, people start new ones for each loss instead of joining the bigger ones.  It seems not only confusing to try to stay up with all of them, but sort of defeats the purpose of "mutual support".  On the other hand, if we couldn't start new threads, we wouldn't have this one, so I guess we take the good with the bad.

I'm like all of you with the idea of our loved ones contacting us and leaving "signs" for us that they're with us.  I believe like it says in Hebrews that they are part of the "cloud of witnesses" who pray for us and encourage us on in our faith, etc., but I don't believe we should pray to them and I don't think they can come to us from that life to this life.  Doesn't sound Biblical to me.  And I've lost a lot of people in my life.  I've never once felt one of them around me or had one appear to me.  Proably would scare the hee-bee-gee-bees out of me if they did!  I do dream of them, and dream of my late husband a lot, but I think that's more my emotional stuff happening when I'm not awake than him "appearing" to me.  I guess, with God, anything is possible, just as Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at His transfiguration, but it's certainly not a normal thing to happen.  It's a lot of New Age thinking, I think, influencing the mainstream of the population, which this website/grief support network is heavily visited by.  Just my thinking...

To you moms who are getting used to a family of one less and wondering if you'll ever get used to it:  You probably won't ever get completely used to it, but after a while you get more used to it than you would think.  Of course, I'm looking at this more from the sibling's point of view than the parent's, but when my brother died when I was 14, it seemed very, very strange for a while, but by the time I graduated high school, it seemed "normal" for it to just be me with my parents.  You get used to a "new" normal, and that becomes "normal" from then on.  Of course this is not the same, but is similar...  My son lives in CA and has lived there for nearly 10 years now.  The first time he didn't come home for Christmas, it was a terrible Christmas for me.  It just didn't seem right that all my kids weren't there.  Now, after 10 years, I'm used to him not being there (sort of).  And when I remarried after my husband died, it seemed very strange to be married to someone different.  It felt "funny" to me, and I really wasn't sure I really liked it that much.  But after a while, it started to feel "normal".  I guess humans have a great capacity to adapt to new environment and situations.  Well, that's just my perspective on it.  I'm sure it would be very different for me if I had actually lost a child rather than him just living across the country from me or losing a brother or even a husband, although a husband/spouse is a pretty tight connection to lose and a pretty close relationship to begin to live without and just be you and not be a couple anymore.

Well, I'm just sort of rambling.  I appreciate whoever said that my faith seems so strong to them.  I doesn't seem that strong to me.  I guess that's because I know what my struggles are, and there are plenty of them, believe me!  All we can do is keep looking to Him to sustain us and bring us through these dark times in our lives and hope we bring some glory to Him in the process.  The song "I Can Only Imagine" is a neat song, by the way.  I just heard it sung at a funeral in November of a young man (son of some people in our church) who fell 50 feet from one of those steel beams on a construction site and died.  His parents chose that song to be played at his memorial service. 

Blessings to everyone,  Oneta

[lagrangel]

Claudia,

   I am praying for your mother and her husband. It would be very difficult to be so far away and not be able to help your mother during this time.  I know after Brent left his earthly home my father became ill and I was there in a minute to help my mother. My father did recover but I know it would be so difficult on you not being able to be with her. I pray God will lift her up in her time of need.  I will pray for your water situation. I know I took alot for granted until I went out of the United States and  realized how others live compared to our modern world.  

Anne,

  I had the same feelings you had mentioned in your post. No signs from my son and his presence on earth was gone. I know that our children our in heaven but how we all terribly miss their presence on earth.  I just broke down yesterday and asked God please tell Brent I miss him so much and how much I loved him.  I go to the cemetery and look at Brent's stone and know he is no longer here. I just think for some silly reason I have to tend to things. Maybe it's just the silly mother still taking care of her son's stuff. Always making sure his flowers are okay and the items people have left our in good order. Is that just silly or what?   I am glad that you were able to get away with your family. It will never be the same as a "family" on any vacation or holiday because our family as we knew it is incomplete but God will show us how to continue on our life here until it our day to join our beloved children.

Sal,

   I also love to listen to songs that really touch my heart. I may have a good cry listening to them but I do feel that is part of our healing process.  I have listened to God Can You Hear Me and had a good cry but what a beautiful song.  I have heard I Can Only Imagine and always one of my favorite songs. I will have to listen to some of the songs Claudia and you suggested.

To each and everyone on this thread I may not post often but your thoughts, prayers, and sharing are a true blessing in my life. I have questioned my faith several times during the course of this 6 months.  The ones we share with on this thread know our grief and the blessings I have received from this Christian thread has strenghted my faith.  A special thanks to evryone who viewed Brent's memorial. Prayers to each and everyone, Lana

http://Brent-LaGrange.virtual-memorials.com

[4everjoeysmom]

Lana, THANK YOU.  I am humbled by all who have so much pain themselves, taking time to pray for me and my family.

I don't know if many of you are familiar with Pastor John Piper.  But I was just reading a devotional I get from his Desiring God Blog.  It was a really good article, and he summed it up by saying, "God does not leave me alone in silence when I can't hear him. He sends me witnesses. When I feel the remarkably immense love of my family—if I'm paying attention—I can finally hear God, and he's saying, “I'm like that.”

I think we are like that for each other here.  When we feel weak in our faith and we can't feel or hear God, we get a glimpse of Him through a word shared, a gesture spoken, and a sense of Christian family united (connected to Heaven) and seeking more than anything God's strength and promise along our journey.  It's way beyond personal belief.  It's everything The Word promises (as Oneta mentioned) in such a Great Cloud of Witness.  There are those that have gone already and stand face to face with God.  And there are those still here that are answering His call on our hearts and sharing our faith as a means of edifying and encouraging one another until we too stand face to face with God.  It doesn't get any sweeter than that.  Thanks Sisters!  I was feeling very isolated and lonely today, and so many of you came forward and took time to embrace me.  Bless you all!!  Love, Claudia

[misshimstill]

Lana and Claudia and all,

It is good to know that as we all feel isolated and cut off from people as we struggle through our own questioning and loneliness and worries about our familes that we're not really alone.  I have felt strengthened more than I have in a long time since Claudia started this thread and I have "met" each of you and know that we are praying for each other, even if we're absent from writing here. 

I know that during these last few years since I began this walk through this very dark valley that I have questioned many things of scripture and of God that I used to practically take for granted - promises of being reunited with my loved ones, promises that God is always with me, feeling so cut off and far away from Him, etc, but I have only been strengthened in this faith once for all delivered to the saints and know that it is true.  The Apostle Paul said that we were of all people to be pitied if it (the death and resurrection of Christ) were not true! 

There is so much more I feel I need to say, or at least want to say, here, but my granddaughter is wanting me to "cuddle" with her, so I must say good-night to you all.  Know that my prayers are with each of you.  

The Lord's peace be with you all,

Oneta

[4everjoeysmom]

Oneta, so well said!  And like you, I too have been strengthened by the constant support and love in Christ.  If it were not true, I would not think twice to pack it up and go back home so I can be near my family in times like these.  But because it is true, I stand on my Rock, whatever it takes, even if it would be my fate to die here.  I know that sounds morbid in a way, but I have never meant it more than now.

Have fun cuddling with your grand daughter.  How precious!!  Love, Claudia

[misshimstill]

Claudia,

It's good to actually be willing to die for this truth.  I don't think it's morbid at all to have that attitude.  You, in your ministry, now, to some extent are reaping a harvest planted by Jim Elliott and his companions who did not shrink from death to proclaim the Gospel to people who had never heard the name of Jesus before. 

I can't remember if you've seen the movie The End of the Spear yet or not, but there's something that moves me to tears every time I have seen the movie.  The movie is told from the perspective of one of the men who killed Elliott and the other men.   There was a man who helped kill them who was converted very soon after the murders, and it isn't shown why he is converted until the very end of the movie.  As the missionaries were dying, this man saw with his eyes - literally saw into the spiritual realm - angels, many angels, who had come to take these men to Heaven.  He saw this and was converted immediately.  At the end of the movie, they re-show the murders from his perspective, and then you see what he saw which caused his conversion. 

We are living in perilous times, even here in the States.  All over the world.  Many will die for their faith.  Much more blood will be spilled over the coming decades or however long God tarries.  But it will blood well spent, as the martyrs' blood is the seed of the Church.

Just wanted to share that story.  Got my granddaughter "cuddled" and asleep and must now go to sleep myself.  Sleep in His peace.  May angels guard our sleep tonight.  ~Oneta

[wyomingsal]

Here is a link to the song Claudia mentioned, "Never Been More Homesick then Now. "    This song really catches what it is to have someone we love go to Heaven before us.  Someone made this video in honor of a loved one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgh6bVkGw_8

 

[wyomingsal]

Ok now I'm in one of those listening to sad music phases.     I had better stop before I over run every one with tear jerker music.  I just went back and listened to some of the songs Caudia posted and then "He's my Son." by Mark Shultz as well.  I have had my share of tears tonight.  These songs are all such great songs. 

 This song doesn't pertain to losing a child but I cry every time I hear it.  "He was Walking her Home"  by Mark Shultz.

[4everjoeysmom]

Oneta,  I do know End of the Spear.  There was another documentary type film from the perspective of Elisabeth Elliott, called Through the Gates of Slendor, I believe.  I have read a lot of her writings.  She is brilliant!  She and another of the wives and children went and lived with the Waodani after their husbands were murdered, and they continued the ministry work within that people group.  Her sacrifices inspire me.  She is widowed twice now, and still a brilliant writer and speaker, even in the later years.  A very good friend of ours, who recently retired as a 40-year missionary nurse in Ecuador and moved back to the US, actually lived in the Elliott's house for a time, down in the jungle.  I love hearing about that history.

An acquaintance from back in my home town that I had not seen in years wrote me an e-mail last year.  Her sister had been a good friend of mine, and after Joey passed from this life I heard from her.  She shared with her sister about me, and coincidentally her sister had just watched End of the Spear.  It resulted in a heavy conviction and this woman becoming a monthly supporter of our ministry work here.  It's so cool how God weaves people in and out through our lives, and through the ages, and things like this happen.  It is SO GOD.

Sal, The music is precious and tear jerking, isn't it?  It's hard not to be sad when I hear the words of some of those songs, because they echo the sentiments of my own heart.  I know this world, and the tragedies within, were not what were meant for us.  We were meant to have perfection.  WE WILL HAVE THAT ONE DAY.  I'm so happy for Joey, really, that he has that now...

I don't think it's "breaking down" per se, to ask God to tell your child how much you love him or her and how much you miss them.  I've done that too, many times.  God knows in such a more perfect way than we can imagine how much we long for the gifts we held and had to return unwillingly.  All of those prayers for protection we've prayed through the years, they were just answered in ways we didn't want or expect.  While I go on praying for Patrick's protection, I know Joey is eternally protected now.  Nothing or no one, ever again, will harm him, deceive him, disappoint him, and so on.  I can't even imagine what that is like, because this fallen world, as beautiful as it can be, never fails to harm, deceive and disappoint.  While I long for Joey, I never, ever again will worry for him.  In a strange way that brings me comfort as well.  Ultimately "knowing" where he is, is all the comfort I need to be able to carry on.  It was never the end, just "See you in a few moments, my son.  It may be years for me, but you'll not miss me.  I promise.........."

 

[fujismum]

It has been so very helpful and upliftinf reading the postings on this site. Everyone of you shares something that helps me, and i really pray that I can do th same for you. I am beginning o see that even though God seems silent in many ways to me at this terrible time of loss, He has sent so many wonderful Christians to minister to me - like you all and those few precious friends who really  "get this" - who feel some of my pain and are there for the long run- they are God speaking in my life. Glimpses of God through other Christians - it does make sense. And "by chance" a lovely Christian counsellor who works with us every week to help us come to terms with a sudden road death and the legal side of things- The Road Victims Trust is not a Christian organisation yet our assigned counsellor is a man of God.How about that!

The song I can only imagine was one of Jamie's favourites and back a few years it was very very popular with Uk young Christians.He was a musician and played that song so beautifully and if we were really fortunate we would catch him singing too. I didn't know it could be seen on youtube so thanks for that link Sal. It made me weep of course, Christian  music always does now and I can rarely listen to it for the moment. But another great link to you guys- we love the same songs. I'll be checking out the others too.

Lana I tend Jamie's grave too, I have taught myself to arrange flowers and almost "enjoy":) buying them and arranging them each week, and taking little things to celebrate events like Valentines day- a little red heart shaped balloon. I know he's not there, but it is very definitely part of my caring role to keep it nice and "buy" things for him and include him in our lives.I bought a laminator and make special personalised cards and texts to leave there.I know others read them too and I see it as a way of sharing what we believe.So many teens go there and I pray that they read and reflect on God's word and His promises.

So many of your words about heaven and hope and  faith have really touched my heart, thank you all so much - I feel uplifted and somehow strengthened again.

Claudia I hope the water situation is better for you and your mum and her husband.

Love to you all.

A special  big hug to Sal - dear dear Josh such a little chap in his photo, he looks such a fun loving little fella and I know your heart is breaking.Every time I see his cute little face I feel for you Sal.Lean on God, keep in touch with us, we will find a way forward. Love Anne

[4everjoeysmom]

Sal and Anne, If you like a soulful, souther-rock kind of music, Natalie Grant did a duet with the country singer, Wynona, called BRING IT ALL TOGETHR (FOR GOOD), and it rocks!  It will get you out of that sad music mood.  I love listening to Christian music.  There is so much that is so good now.  It's not the Christian music of a decade or two ago, for sure.  It's so way much better.  I think when I feel far away from my faith, when i listen to music from the likes of Sara Groves and other very wise song writers, it picks me up and puts me back into a spiritual connection.  Music has a way of doing that anyway I think.  And I do listen to various pastors speak, like Mark Driscoll for example is someone I recently became familiar with, and he is so on target.  I love his sermons.  There is nothing like a good, sound doctrine, sermon to get me to think creatively and see more in the spiritual realm.  Sometimes they are hard to hear, especially when i have been rebelling, because the conviction is weighty at times.  But its freeing too, and reaffriming.  I think the world and everyone who loves the world and their lives more than God speak so loudly.  And when we are vulnerable and can't hear His voice, we have to find ways to edify and fortify our faith.  We are his sheep, and we need to be fed.  It isn't that we lose our faith so much as we become more discouraged and down, more beaten up by circumstances if this life, when we feel trapped in the world.  And that again is why i am so glad we have each one here reaching in, and reaching out; whatever the need is, God seems to meet it here, through each one to another.  That alone is answer to prayer.  Hugs, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

P.s, after praying that God would make it easy to fix the water line, Michael was able to fix it in 2 hours, without help.  He had to avoid a lot of quick mud and really rough terrain to get to everything, but those wonderful walking sticks he makes out of guava wood here as a hobby come in very handy in such.  Thanks for your prayers.  They were answered!!  It could have easily been so much worse....  Thanks Lord!

[daniellemom]

Claudia,

Great News on the water, Our Lord is so wonderful!!

[misshimstill]

Claudia,  When I wrote what I did about The End of the Spear, I couldn't remember who had said they hadn't seen it yet.  It makes sense that you have since you live there.  We're very, very well acquainted with the Elliotts and the other missionaries they worked with.  I've seen a picture of Elisabeth Elliott giving a hair cut to one of the men who murdered her husband.  In fact, it may have been THE particular man who murdered her husband.  Yes, I agree that it's a truly inspiring story and amazing that those women were willing to go back to that tribe and minister to them after their husbands were killed.  That's the grace of God and the power of forgiveness at work.

To all of you who go to your loved ones' graves and put things out:  I do that, too.  My husband is buried in Oklahoma near my home town.  I don't get to go there very often because it's an 8-hour drive or better (one way), but I go to his grave and put pretty things out as a way of not only showing respect for him, but also it helps me work through some of my grief. 

I certainly agree with Claudia that there is nothing wrong or weak in asking God to tell our loved ones things.  I've done that a lot, also.  I had a lot of things that were in my heart that I have always wished I could have told him if I had known he was going to die that day, but never got the chance to say them to him.  I've asked the Lord to tell him those things for me.  It seems natural to me to do that.

We just had a very dear friend die this afternoon.  She had a rare form of skin cancer and had suffered with such joy and peace for three years.  She's now with the Lord and not suffering anymore.  She is now more "alive" than she was here.  We're concerned for her husband and children.  Her oldest was 14 and two younger than that.  I am concerned that her husband will neglect his own grief to help his children - he's that kind of man.  I would appreciate your prayers for him.  His name is Keith... and the three children who will have to finish growing up without a mom.

Blessings to all of you.  ~Oneta

[4everjoeysmom]

Oneta,  I will pray for keith and his children--so very sad for them.  How wonderful that your friend had peace.  I'm sure the saddest part about knowing she was going home was that she would be leaving them behind for a time.  I believe that would be the toughest part for a Christian to deal with in the midst of dying, if they know beforehand...  Especially now, being on the receiving end of having my son go before me.  I know how that made me and his family feel so lost and sad for a time...

My mom had a very dear friend for a time, who actually was the one who led her to Christ.  This friend about a year later was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and died about 6-8 months later.  She was such a peace-filled woman as well, even though her family was devastated as she was dying.  I remember talking to her while she was still able, and how much she was a reflection of God's grace, even in her worst of moments.  The family had been praying for healing.  The daughter, married to the pastor of their church, was so filled with anger for quite a good while because that prayer had not been answered in the way she desired--for her mom to be healed here.  And while it is a mystery often to us why things have to occur the way they do, and why a healing doesn't come, etc, we can know that no matter the circumstances, prayers for healing for God's people are ALWAYS faithfully answered, in God's way and in His time.  We can know that full healing (bodily, mentally, spiritually) if not here, WILL happen in Heaven.

I pray that Keith and his children can know with certainty that their wife/mother is completed to perfection, in the presence of God and all His glory, and that they can draw comfort and strength in knowing this--and that God can and will somehow, over time heal them and fill the voids with the peace and knowing of His Promise.  Blessings, Claudia

[misshimstill]

Thanks, Claudia, for your prayers.  Keith and Renee have been such examples of how to face something like this.  They have always had such strong faith in however the Lord chooses to deal with this.  They, of course, have asked for healing in this world for her, but have always shown such an attitude of acceptance of whatever His will is for them.  Keith was just telling Jack last night as they talked that Renee is now "more alive" than she ever was in this life!  How true that is for a Christian!  I honestly don't know how nonChristians face death.  I think it is only by their fantasies about where their loved ones are - some of the kinds of things we hear and read about here on BI.  I'm so thankful we don't have to look for "signs" that our loved ones are "okay" because we know they are with the Lord, and we have the sure knowledge that we will be reunited with them some day. 

Yes, the worst part of death for us is the temporary separation that occurs when they precede us in death.  For them, it is Glory!  For us, it is agony as we wait for the Lord's time for us to join them.  That is, of course, why we're all here on BI.  Jack and I have discussed all the way through these past few months, when it has become evident that the Lord wasn't going to heal her now, that having seen me struggle through my 35-year-old grief that it will be his task as Keith's friend to support him through this time.  None of their other pastor friends have yet experienced death in their families - or at least not a spouse or really close family member - and have no idea what that pain is like.  Jack doesn't, either, first hand, but he has seen me deal with mine and knows how very difficult and how very dark the walk can be at times.  He is prepared to help Keith and support him as probably their other pastor friends  will not be able to do.

I really feel for their children.  Because Renee had maintained such a strong faith that she would be healed and was such a positive person, she really never accepted her inevitable death; therefore, the children had not really been prepared.  It will be especially difficult for them (I would think) that they never really got to say goodbye to their mother, even though it was a drawn-out death.  One of the little boys has already been showing some signs of "acting out", even before her death, so I'm really praying for someone in their circle of friends or family or Keith himself to be given wisdom as to how to help the children grieve.  Having experienced my brother's death when I was 14, I know how difficult it can be for children, and to lose a mother would be so many more times worse than losing a sibling.

I hope everyone is doing well this morning or whenever you read this.  As always, my prayers are with all of you for God's sustaining grace to be felt and drawn upon and His nearness to be experienced in our daily walk with Him.  ~Oneta

[wyomingsal]

One of our pastors recently lost his grandfather.  I know a grandfather is not as close as we have lost, however still an important family member.  The horrible part is that he does not believe his grandfather was saved.    We all know how those guilt feelings will pop up when someone we love dies.  Unrational and way too hard on ourselvse we somehow feel "if only" we had done something different this might not have happened like this.  This pastor is having a hard time because as a pastor I know he feels like he should have done more to ensure his grandfather was saved.  He may or may not have said what the Lord called him to say to his grandfather....I don't know,  but I know it is hard to witness to your elders in your own family.  The most horrible thing ever is to die without Jesus as your Lord and Savior.  The other thing he is struggling with is that even his Christian family members are saying Grampa is with the Lord.  It is just not sitting right with our pastor that strong Christians will water down what the Bible says about salvation for their own comfort.  I give thanks everyday that my little man had accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savioir.  (He didn't always model that   )  But I know he is with the Lord.  I have wondered if I would have been more angry at God if I had an adult child die without the Lord.  I can't truly even imagine that.  So glad I don't have to. 

Thank you Lord for the salvation of my children.  Nothing is better then that for me as a mother.

Sal

[wyomingsal]

I will be praying for Keith and the children.  May the Lord comfort this family and give wisdom to Keith in how best to raise these precious children.  Lord, I ask that You would give an assurance to Keith and each child that You are real and powerful and that everything is going to be ok for all of eternity.   Let them know without doubt that their precious wife and mother is home is happy in Heaven.  Send messengers of comfort during this time of grief.  Oh how piercing is that saness and longing.  Thankyou Lord for all you are doing in this family. 

 In Your precious Name,  Amen

 

[daniellemom]

Oneta,

I will pray for Keith and his children and the extended family. I will also pray for your husband and he tries to help Keith through this difficult time.

[4everjoeysmom]

Sal, I think you're right in that your pastor carries his burdens very heavily, because he is a leader and much is expected of him.  That said, and he being a man of faith, he should also then know that all we can ever do is plant seeds.  We cannot force or bring someone to salvation.  That is the Lord's work.  Sure!  We can do and say things.  But ultimately everything comes down to the Lord flipping ON that switch inside each one.  We don't know what happens in the last unconscious breaths between man and God.  But you are right also that it is no good for believers to water down salvation.  That is like slapping Jesus in the face and saying His blood was not needed.  It is His faithfulness, and His final act for redemption that matters.  I hope your pastor's grandfather did receive Jesus, somehow, somewhere along his journey.  There is absolutely nothing at this point that can be done for the grandfather, but i will pray for peace for your pastor.  Blessings, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

Morning All,  I had about 2-1/2 hours in the middle of the night that I lay awake, unable to go back to sleep.  I finally got up and took a half a sleeping pill, which I don't do very often anymore.  But as I lay there, and even this morning I have been pondering the "watered down Bible" comment.  I think this issue is the largest growing detriment to todays church.  Look at all the churches who continue to split and emplode because of their watered down views that become way out of biblical context on many of today's huge issues in society--caring more for suiting the people and shifting cultures than remaining faithful to scripture--what constitutes a marriage, sexuality, abortion, prosperity gospels, and even the askewed message of salvation.  It's really sad, and a very dangerous shift.  I do believe often its a matter of comfort and what people are humanly willing to accept that moves to water things down--human sin nature, although most would suffice to say they are advocating for good.  

As I lay there thinking about that, I went back to the images from the movie The Passion of the Christ.  Anyone seen it?  It's fairly graphic.  But in reality it probably isn't graphic enough for what Christ truly suffered.  Even Hollywood has its limits, eh?  It's actually pretty amazing they even let a movie like that fly, really.  But as those images sailed through my mind and heart, it reminded me all the more why I am radical--because He was and is radical for me, and he was and is radical for Joey.  Because he is radical we can have Hope and Heaven. 

We are blessed to be given wisdom to know you cannot stand for Jesus while standing for all that is against Him at the same time.  I believe it is as Oneta said, because we have this Foundation, this Cornerstone, This Redeemer, Savior and Friend, who never waivered, never cowered, never watered it down, we don't have to go looking to know that all Jesus is and stands for is enough to know our loved ones were called to Him.  We know exactly where they are, who they are with, and that there will be an awesome reunion for all of eternity.  As we are temporarily separated from our beloveds, what better comfort is there for us than knowing Jesus?  I can't even imagine...    HUGS and Blessings, Claudia

[misshimstill]

Good morning to everyone.  Danielle's mom, Sal, Claudia, and everyone - Thank you for your faithfulness in prayer.  Our friend, Keith, is in those early stages of numbness right now.  He and my husband and a few others have a book club which met on Friday.  Jack was surprised when Keith said he was planning on being there yesterday.  He ended up not getting there, but said he wanted to.  I told Jack he's in that initial stage right now (especially true of people who have lost someone to a very lingering illness) of feeling almost elation that Renee is with the Lord, out of pain, etc. and he himself has not yet had time to feel her absence is anything more than just being gone somewhere for a couple of days.  I told Jack to really keep an eye on him because after the memorial service and life begins to settle into a routine again with him and the kids, that it will really hit him then. 

I agree so much about the "watered down" comments.  It is bad enough when the world says God is in any religion or in themselves or whatever, and you know they don't mean the God of the Bible, but when the Church does it, too, it's especially hard to take.  I think, though, in regard to your pastor, Sal, that his family is probably just trying to comfort themselves by convincing themselves Grandpa was okay with God.  I mean, he may have really been okay with God.  No one really knows what was in his heart at the time of his death, as Claudia said, but a lot of times families will tell themselves this to comfort their own hearts.  I hope your pastor can receive comfort in just the knowledge that he did all he could do and know that God always does the right thing.  He can do no more than that.

I hope everyone has a pleasant day.  God be with each of you.  ~Oneta

[msroderskie]

Hi everyone!  There is always so much to reply to once I've missed looking at this thread for a few days!  Anne I know how you feel, having prayed constantly for my children's safety, then having two sons die.  What a paradigm shift.  It does make you examine all that you have believed, and for some of us that means our faith becomes strengthened.  I'm so glad that you seem to be experiencing that kind of increase in strength, though of course you will have ups and downs.

And Claudia, you were right on target in saying that all those prayers for our children are answered in one way or another, in God's time and His way.  I understand the feelings about knowing your son was gone, Sal.  As my husband and I made the hour's drive to the hospital where they were trying to revive Phil after his drowning, I had a stong feeling that Phil was gone.  As we waited outside the emergency room, my husband whispered to me "When they revive him we'll take him to our house to recover", and I hushed him, because I didn't want him to give false hope to my daughters who were nearby.  I was praying the entire time, but I felt that Phil was not coming back to us. 

I could go on and on about songs, and how important music has been to me in grieving, but I'll just name a few songs:  "Call on Jesus" and "Redeemer", by Nichole C Mullen.  And many songs by the L. A. Mass Choir -- like "I Must Tell Jesus".   I also strongly identify with those of you who go to the graves of your loved ones to plant flowers and check on the memorials left there.  Anne, I like your idea of leaving laminated items at the grave.  I've left a few items, such as pocket "stones" with phrases such as "Forgiven" on them, but I like the idea of leaving lengthier witnesses.  I don't think it's silly at all to attend to the graves in that way, Lana.  It's a good way to honor our loved ones and grieve.  Don't feel silly about wanting to tend to the grave of your son.

There is an important book out by John McArthur concerning the watering down of the Gospel that you've all been talking about. It's entitled "The Truth War".  I highly recommend it to any Christian and it has been the catalyst for me to re-examine what is actually being preached in my large, rather watered-down church.  McArthur points out that we are called to be strong defenders of the faith, contending for the truth of the Word, not in physical battle of course, but in how we communicate about the Gospel.  One of my favorite preachers has put it this way:  If they don't understand the Bad News (that we are all sinners in need of salvation and that hell awaits us without Christ), then how can they possibly understand the Good News?  My husband tells me John McArthur once said, "Jesus didn't die just so you could have a nice day."  So absolutely true.    

My Dad probably died without Christ, (one year ago Feb 21st), and yet I have great hope that he did turn to Him at the end, and I have several reasons for that hope.  My Dad previously had engaged in some pretty lively discussions about God with me and my husband.  Dad had come to the conclusion, on his own, that human beings are not "inherently good" as he'd been wont to believe his whole life.  And he'd been reading the Bible a lot.  He had a lot of questions and protests, but sometimes that kind of person is much closer to believing than one who is indifferent.  When Dad learned he was terminally ill with lung cancer he announced he did not want to talk about the concept of God anymore.  OK, we thought, it's his choice, we have to agree to that.  It was understandable, since a couple other Christian family members had been known to browbeat family members who'd lain dying in recent years.  I believe my Dad wanted his ultimate decision about Christ to be his own private decision, with no further influence from anyone else.  So when he described the weird feeling a pain drug gave him, as if he was in a quiet, white room, I asked the Lord to go to that "place" to meet with Dad.  When Dad expressed to his wife that he was afraid near the end, I whispered in Dad's ear (OK, I breached our agreement), "Don't be afraid, Dad. God loves you."  I know that he had a good grasp of the bad news and what he had to do to turn to Christ.  When I last saw him alive and I weepily said to him, "You better be there with God when I get to heaven", he struggled to say something in reply.  I suppose he might have been struggling to say something smart alecky in reply, but on the other hand, he could very well have been trying to answer in the affirmative.  So I choose to believe there is reason to hope.  But it is possible my Dad did not make the right choice. I won't know until I'm there.  For now, here, I can hope, but I won't announce that Dad is for sure in heaven.  I guess what I'm trying to say is, just because my Dad did not recite a prescribed prayer with me, I can still hope that he may have turned to God in his last days, hours or moments.  Death bed conversions do happen.  Look at how kind our Lord was to the thief on the cross.

Once again I am amazed at how much love and support there is on this site.  You sisters are all a great blessing to me, and I thank God for each of you.  I pray that Christ will make His love obvious in many ways for Keith and his children, for your Mom and her husband, Claudia.  And I pray for each one of you today, that you will be aware of Christ's presence with you in your grief.  His love is great, His mercy reaches to the clouds. He is our strong tower - our refuge - our present help in time of need.  Love in Jesus,   Rody

[4everjoeysmom]

Hey Rody, God Bless You, and thanks so much for your (as always) wonderful post.  I just want to say that there is nothing in the bible that says a prescribed prayer is necessary for a conversion in coming to faith.  I think we all know that.  Jesus, when He saved the woman from being stoned, said "Go and Sin No More".  He didn't say, you muct repeat this prayer with me to be saved.  The only prayer Jesus recited and said "Pray Like This", was what we know as the Lord's Prayer, Our Father WHo Art In Heaven....  and that was kind of like giving someone the book, Christianity for Dummies...  LOL..   ok..maybe not quite like that, but you know what I mean.  We needed a model, and He gave it to us, clearly.

I believe from your story that there is a definite reason to hope.......   And I thank you so much for your faith-filled prayers.  Love in Christ, Claudia

[misshimstill]

Rody,  Good as always to hear from you.  I love to read your posts.  I believe, as you say very well, that your dad could very well have turned to Christ at the end.  My mother had a very dramatic "end", as I've described in the past, after a whole lifetime of saying she just didn't understand when we would try to explain things to her.  My dad, before his death (he had been an elder for years) finally began to say things to me that signaled to me that he finally had a true grasp of the gospel.  Just being an elder or church member or whatever people may claim isn't gonna do it, so I was glad and relieved to hear him saying the things he did toward the end.  But the truth is, about people who have been like that their whole lives, we will just have to wait to get there ourselves to know for sure.  I can only trust in God's mercy and His justice that he will always do the right thing.  I know that His mercy is wide and his love is deep and He will admit all who call on His name for salvation.

Gotta run.  Blessings to all.  ~Oneta

[4everjoeysmom]

I stumbled onto a great website of resources for the Christian bereaved.  There is LOTS of info...  Tha link is http://www.agapeindia.com/steve/thosewho.htm

It's Help for Those Who Grieve, put together by a couple who lost their only child at 13 to a bicycle accident.  In it is a link to another website called mwww.musicforthesoul.org, which I didn't spend a lot of time, but found some nice lyrics filled with encouragement and hope for various stages and causes of grief.  I enjoyed looking through the site and will revisit it numerous times to be able to absorb all that is there.  nan, the mother included some articles on How To Hlep the Bereaved, which I think so many could take lessons from, because I know we've all experienced the insensitivity and blind ignorance of others in our moments of pain.

I do hope some of you find the site interesting and helpful...  Blessings & Hugs, Claudia

 

 

[mamabets]

For 4everjoeysmom~ A very beautiful site...As for the insensitive and ignorant, best to just stay away from them, I recommend to so many. There will always be a co-worker, neighbor{s}, friends, even family member that simply does not get it, so the chit chat with them is about all one can expect. They choose not to embrace our angels passing to the other side, and refuse to embrace us through all of our pain, and all of it's miracles as well.

How each one grieves is so different. Where one gets comfort is a personal thing... This would be the perfect world, if not for differences. What I have SEEN is so much more clear to me, than what I used to FEEL so deeply. When I put the two together, I know now where Danny is and how he is, always... I believe in a power far greater than myself, would be silly for ME, not to, yet I respect the feelings of others, as long as their thoughts aren't evil. I just stay away from people like that.

Danny is powerful!!! He always was- Why would I ever take that away from him now???

I know my Danny, and I know how he has always spoken to me. For 25 years, a day never went by...His life and his miracles live on... He speaks in the same way, just without questions and tears...I look for nothing, he shows me everything. Had we not had the relationship that we had, I wouldn't know for certain all that I do. He is in partnership with his God, and they are having a blast, as they try to help so many. We are just the messengers...

Do I know how to cry until my eyes can't open?? Yup....That will never change...But there is never a time when I don't hear him whisper to my heart..."Mom, I really love it here, and I am with you always, remember??"

We have some team of angels that are with us all, by heart. They are capable of showing us so many things, if we only believe. I have often said that all I once believed in, I now know to be, for I am blessed to have my eyesight.

There are no coincidences once you have lost a child. Not a one.....

My love and prayers to you always. You are amazing, and Joey is with you always~ I will be forever grateful that your beautiful baby is with mine...

LOVE

mamabets

1027orangeliliesgodbless.bmp

[4everjoeysmom]

Dear Betsy,

I will preface this to say that my post is from a Christian-Biblical Worldview.

One of the greatest epiphanies God has shown me through losing Joey is that every person who lives on this planet, given the opportunity to live long enough, will suffer a loss.  Many who have already suffered loss don’t know how to process their pain.  Some of those people walk in the insensitive and ignorant category because maybe they never had an example of compassion in their own loss, I imagine.  Others are bitter with the sting of their loss.  And there are those who are afraid our kind of loss will reach to them as well.  Some just have hearts of stone.  I guess there are lots of reasons for the insensitive and ignorant to be who and what they have become.  Most haven’t always been that way.  Some have.  But the good news is that they don’t necessarily have to stay that way.  I was really pleasantly surprised to see the resources for “people who don’t know our pain”.  As much as insensitivity and lack of compassion hurt, I find Hope in teaching those folks through my own compassion toward their insensitivities, because truly I pity them for not being able to relate or understand.  If they haven’t already known my pain in some form, they will know it soon enough if they live long enough.  Perhaps it will not be the loss of a child, but a catastrophic loss nonetheless is painful.  I am learning my loss is not about me, but more about how my loss can influence my life and the lives of others for the better and in a way that glorifies God—the insensitive included.  A Scripture that comes to mind here is Colassians 4:5-6 (Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.)  When people have open wounds, salt stings the wound.  People around us know we have wounds, but maybe lack true wisdom to understand and/or grace to be gentle with us.  That is why despite our pain we need to exercise gentleness and wisdom ourselves.  I think it goes both ways—not just toward us but from us toward others.  It’s easier said than done sometimes.  In our grief it is hard to have patience at times.  But I think truly we could make a remarkable difference for others who will follow in our footsteps one day if we can be less judgmental and harsh on the ignorant.  I recall when Jesus hung on the Cross, he prayed to The Father for those that beat, mocked and murdered him, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”  I pray that would be my prayer toward those that hurt me out of ignorance.

I do believe grief is a very personal journey, and how we find comfort as well.  I do believe most of us that share regularly on this particular thread have a similar view on our source of comfort, though, and that is from the God of the Holy Scriptures, whose grace and mercy sustains us, and whose Word and Promise gives us our Hope for the future.  The Word doesn’t support our children and loved ones becoming angels as they cross over, or that they become equal to God in power and ability in any way.  The Scripture does say in 1 Corinthians 6:3 that WE will judge angels, meaning those of us saved and gone to be with Jesus, who says “In my Father's house are many rooms.  If it were not so, I would have told you.  I am going there to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come back and take you to be with me, that you also may be where I am" (John 14:1-3).  I believe the Lord has prepared Joey’s room, and Joey lives there, fully and completely with him.  I believe I will too one day.  I do believe Joey is “helping God” in some fashion, according to what he was created for and the gifts and talents God borne in him, but I can’t say for certain I know what that job is.  I believe it is connected to whatever Joey’s reward in Heaven would be, based on whatever his Spirit-filled works were here on Earth.  I sometimes imagine what my reward in Heaven will be.  I’ve joked with my husband on days when I feel I have been such a failure that perhaps I will be scrubbing the commodes of Heaven with my toothbrush.  Then I laugh and wonder, do they even have commodes?  I would assume when our bodies are perfect, we no longer have a need to void...  kind of a peculiar thought, isn't it?  LOL.

I don’t believe that if everyone in the world got together and laid out their differences and made a conscious choice to agree, that humanity has the power to redeem itself or the world.  We’re much too selfish a crowd for that.  I used to run a Board of Directors meeting for my business and my homeowners association.  Even the greatest minds and hearts disagree on finer points.  It is true that humanity and the world need a Redeemer.  Most people look for a Savior in some form—especially the bereaved.  ONE has been given.  His name is Jesus.  The world is a fallen world, because of humanity’s sin against God.  Today the greatest sin against God is having all kinds of other idols before him (the breaking of the second commandment).  But humanity is indifferent.  Humanity doesn’t believe the problem of the world is humanity itself—that EVERYONE falls short of the glory of God.  There is no fixing it without Jesus.  But humanity is a stubborn crowd, and they insist on having the power to do it themselves.  Poor Moses schlepped the Jews around in the dessert for 40 years until they all but 2 died off before finally reaching the Promised Land.  They couldn’t agree to follow through with God’s instructions.  They found the Land of Milk and Honey, and wanted to settle for that as being good enough for their fulfillment when God had a greater plan for them.  They died…all but 2 and Moses.  Moses wasn’t allowed into the Promise Land because he allowed his flock to settle for less.  I have to be honest here.  I WILL NOT settle for less than what God has for me.  And I truly believe that following mystical ideas to comfort myself is settling for less than His Truth and His Promise that my son is enjoying the fulfillment of Heaven and God’s righteous redemptive plan for him.  My son is not an angel, but the perfect Joey, the perfect man that God created him to be.  I cannot see, hear or feel him now, but I so look forward to meeting the perfect Joey when I arrive there to become the perfect Claudia God intended for me to be.  I do respect others and their journeys.  But I am very cautious to follow that quickly by saying that if others’ thoughts contain any gospel other than Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord of All, then those thoughts are influenced by evil no matter how fluffy they are.  Scripture is clear on that, (Galatians 1:9  As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!),  and I must GO WITH GOD over any idea mankind might interject.  The Scriptures are given for purpose, one being to check all ideas, opinions, gospels and so forth against the Word of God.  If it doesn’t line up, it is NOT of God—pure and simple.  I know many don’t look at the Scriptures as being Truth, Complete, Word of God, Ultimate Authority and The Law, and I know my “attitude” is very strong.  But I hold to it.  I don’t intend to beat anyone down for their differing ideas, but I certainly will not subscribe to the plentitude of differing ideas and opinions to pacify this world or humanity.  If I did not have my Hope in Jesus to cling to, I would surely have nothing.  Jesus is everything to me.  He is my God, my Redeemer, and my Friend.  And I know that it is my relationship with Jesus, above all else, that is what truly keeps me connected to Joey.  It is nothing Joey did or can do.  It is ALL JESUS.

My LOVE and PRAYERS are with you as well, Dear Betsy.  I know how horribly painful this journey is.  You inspire so many people.  I pray Jesus can become the center of that inspiration one day.  HE IS a power like no other…   Love & Blessings, Claudia

[wyomingsal]

I also believe that our children are not angels but perfected people in God's image.  Somewhere (Oh I am terrible at remembering where) in the Bible it says that we will actually be higher in the Heavenly hiarchy then the angels.  We are very different from them.  I have been to many grief groups that call their heavenly children Angel babies, angels, etc.  I have always been uncomfortable with that because it doesn't match scripture so that is why I chose the name heavenly children to talk about our precious children.  We were just studying 1 Corithians 15 at church.  I like these verses.  They talk alot about resurrection and glorified bodies. 

1 Cor. 15: 35-

But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?  How foolish!"  What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.  When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.  But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.  All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.  There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.  The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.  So will it be with the resurrection of the dead.  The body that is sown is perishable, it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

It is amazing to wonder what we will be like when we are transformed in the twinkling of an eye into our glorified and imperishable bodies. I know my son is happy as are all of our Heavenly children.  My Joshua heard the verse about Jesus preparing mansions in Heaven so when he was little, around 4 of 5, he told me he wanted Jesus to give him a green house.  It is so funny how we imagine Heaven in our earthly imagination with earthly thoughts and terms.  I don't think we can fully comprehend the colors and sights and sounds and feelings of Heaven. 

Sal

 

[wyomingsal]

At church yesterday, a young man came up to me with tears in his eyes.  He asked if he could talk to me.  3 years ago he started a basketball program at our church called Upward which has scripture verses and Bible studies at the practices.  They also have testimonies during the half time at the games.  They have cool uniforms it is a really neat program.  This program has grown tremendously over the 3 years.  Many kids from our community have signed up, even those from non-Christian homes.  This kids hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Anyways  this young man told me that during the time he was being convicted to start this program, he was very tired and had a lot of things going on his life.  He didn't really want to do it.  Grudgingly he obeyed the Lord and started this program.  My son Joshua played for 2 years before his earthly death.  When the young man heard that Joshua had died, he said he broke into tears and knew why the Lord had called him into this ministry.  These young people need to know the Lord. 

 Here I am thinking Joshua's death is all about me and my learning and my loss, and yet God is using his death to encourage many people to continue serving Him.  This young man wanted to know if he could share about that during his testimony at the game next weekend.  I told him of course he could.  What could be a better purpose in my son's death then to bring more of his peers to Heaven to be with him. 

Sal

[4everjoeysmom]

SAL--  I LOVE THE TESTIMONY of this young man.  What a most awesome and godly way to honor Joshua's life, by bringing glory to the One who made Joshua.  I know you must have been so moved by this, and so proud of Joshua in that moment.  God bless you.  Love & Hugs, Claudia

[daniellemom]

Clauida,

When I read your post I almost started shouting! You are so blessed with a kind spirt and have helped me so much through this storm of life. How is your Mom and Greg doing?

Sal,

What a wonderful testimony this is. I know you are so proud of Jousha.

[daniellemom]

Clauida,

When I read your post I almost started shouting! You are so blessed with a kind spirt and have helped me so much through this storm of life. How is your Mom and Greg doing?

Sal,

What a wonderful testimony this is. I know you are so proud of Jousha.

[daniellemom]

Clauida,

When I read your post I almost started shouting! You are so blessed with a kind spirt and have helped me so much through this storm of life. How is your Mom and Greg doing?

Sal,

What a wonderful testimony this is. I know you are so proud of Jousha.

[4everjoeysmom]

Hey Sonya-- I could just envision you getting "all with Jesus"..  LoL.  He is SO GOOD!

I haven't talked to my mom in a couple of days, although tried to call her early this morning.  She said she may stay with her best friend now and then, when things get too bumpy and lonely.  Or she may have been out early running errands, because I think she got snowed in for a few days.  Greg is in a nursing home now, in a rehab area.  It's a 1-yr new facility, so that's the good part.  The hard part is that last word was he was not improving enough for my mom to be able to care for him at home.  I just don't know...  It's a really hard situation.  I do thank you for your prayers.  My mom is a woman of faith, and she is praying for God's will, no matter what and how tough that might be to face.  She is stronger than she knows, and I imagine the Lord is covering her, but she feels the same isolation, sadness, grief that we too have felt.  Hers is a slow growing grief of losing more and more over time with the thief of Alzheimer's.  It's so sad.  And it's frustrating for Greg in his sane moments to realize he is losing his mind, his self, his wife, his life....

All of you who have been lifting my mom in prayer, THANK YOU SO MUCH!  It means more to us than you can imagine.  God bless you all.  Love, Claudia

 

[mamabets]

For 4everjoeysmom~ I can't remember where on this site I was reading about someone questioning the ignorant and insensitive- I was only replying to them, assuming that you would probably agree with me, I suppose. PLEASE don't think I was directing that at you!!

We know each other better than that!!! Just making sure!! I have been trying to find where I read it, but I can't find it. I thought it was on this thread, as I travel them all.

I know what it feels to be pushed aside by insensitive people. People that I  was always so happy to be there for, long before this happened to my world, and since.

I have come across many that are insensitive and while I don't pity them like I used to, I certainly wish it were different for them. People need people. Many people are not safe people by choice, hurt those of us that are kind hearted, and all will have to answer come judgement day...

Won't be pretty for some, and it will be glorious for most, I truly believe...

You are a beautiful woman, inside and out, and my prayers are with you and your lonely heart, always...

LOVE

mamabets

[4everjoeysmom]

Hi Mamabets,

According to God, it will definitely be glorious for those in Christ... 

I hope you don't think I was on the attack about the insensitive offenders.  Back a few years ago all the kids were wearing the WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) Bracelets...and even non Christian organizations copied the idea in their own ways.  Ever since then that phrase runs through my mind a lot when I feel disturbed by something.  What a gimmick to make such a powerful slogan stick and work for me (on most occasions, anyway)...  LOL.

Bless you too Bets.  You're a sweetheart.  Hugs, Claudia

[angelgirl63]

Hello everyone ~

Since this thread is on the topic of the Bible ~ please allow me to put in my two humble cents ~ all should be aware that there are many poorly translated Bibles on the market and edited versions that have taken out seven canonical books from the original text and even removed some vital verses.  Take heed to use the Bible translation of our early Church Fathers. Saint Jerome was very meticulous and careful for a reason when he translated the origianl Bible books in the 4th century. As was Saint Peter, when he tells us to be careful when interpreting Holy Scripture on our own.  Many destructive heresies have come about because of personal interpretation.

 

 

 

[4everjoeysmom]

The Apocraphyl books (which I believe is what is being referenced here) are not accepted by the Protestant church.  There are actually 14 or 15, I believe, and even the catholic church could not agree on which ones belonged in and which didn't--but none of them were in the original canonized scriptures.  The early church fathers came together and canonized scripture by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, believing that by this all that should be included is.  And this is how the Bible is still known today.  Whether or not the Apocraphyl books belong to the Canon is an argument that does persist...true.  I think there are catholic bibles that include the Apocraphyls (some of them). 

According to Scripture we can understand it wisely through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and be able to do so without a mediator source. 

2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 This is not to say that people do often times translate poorly.  And there definitely are some very poor translations (word for word) and dynamic equivalents (thought for thought) of the Bible out there... For those unfamiliar with versions, I recommend NASB, ESV, NKJV, as these translations are most in line with original texts of Greek and Hebrew, which were as stated Original Languages of the Ancient Scrolls--very few passages were written in Aramaic...

This isn't really a Theology Board, per se.  But there is a big difference in some of us and the Bibles we are using...  for example, the Mormom and Jehovah Witness faiths also have bibles and use additional books that they consider scriptures as well.  I guess what it all boils down to is who we look to as our Savior and where our help comes from in our grief and healing....  I prefer to go with what the Holy Spirit leads....

[angelgirl63]

Hello again ~

The books that I am referring to in the Old Testament are ~ Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, First and Second Machabees - and parts of Esther (10:14 to 16:14) and Daniel (3:24- 90; 13; 14).  They are part of the Second Canonical books.  This is something I thought most should know on this thread... 

  

[4everjoeysmom]

Yes, these are the writings I referred to, also known as the Apocraphyl writings.....   or Deuterocanonical books...which even though are not canonized are well known by many protestant Christians.   The canonization of Scripture is a very interesting study indeed, and it is so complex that this isn't really the appropriate venue to discuss whether we should include non-canonized writings in our scripture study or in our grieving.  If it works for you, great!  The Spirit guides me in the (canonized) Scriptures and I am fulfilled with this.  Whether the writings you mention are added eventually or not does not change my road to salvation one way or the other.  Additionally, as previously implied, this thread is not centered on the Bible as topic.  This thread is centered on grieving and healing as a topic, but the foundation of our sharing being from a Biblical Christian worldview.  If there is something specific to your grieving that you would like to share inspirations from these writings you mentioned, you are so more than welcome to do that.  But I don't believe any of us here are interested in turning this forum into one for debate on this particular topic.

I'll leave the battle to the high scholars of the churches.  But it is indeed interesting....  Outside of this, anyone who would like to check out the controversy, here is a good link.  http://www.probe.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=77

 

[msroderskie]

Claudia,  Thanks for the great link to an excellent article on the Apocryphal books.  I knew that the most learned scholars do not recognize those books as being part of scripture, but I couldn't find the info I wanted to make that point.  Ultimately, you are right. This isn't the best forum for sorting out canonization of scripture, but it's definitely necessary to stand up for the Biblical view when anything questionable is brought up. 

Of course I agree with your assertion that the idea of people turning into angels is not scriptural.  People are easily misled on this idea nowadays, with all the New Agey ideas out there.  It's clear from so several passages in scripture that people were actually created to rule above angels ultimately, that is, when redeemed in Christ.  1 Peter 1:12 refers to how the angels "desire to look into these things", with "these things" referring to salvation by faith.  So angels are a separate kind of being that do not experience salvation; obviously not former humans.  And I know there are folks with a quicker grasp of Bible knowledge than I have who could give many more examples, such as the passage where it is said believers will one day judge angels.  I suppose one could view this angel issue as a petty distinction, but I don't believe the Lord wants us to be careless with scripture.  We are to understand its main issues fully as possible without adding or subtracting from it.  Jesus Himself quotes Old Testament scripture many times and believed it wholly.   

I believe God will bless you Claudia for holding forth for the Biblical standard on this grief site.  What good will it ever do anyone, in grief or not, to believe in fairy tales?Love in Christ,    Rody 

[angelgirl63]

Please forgive me, If I struck a chord with you Claudia, or any other Protestant on here, for sharing a Catholic 'Biblical worldview' or suggestion...   it's near and dear to my heart.  Please accept my small partaking on this thread, in the spirit that it is offered, as helpful to me in my grieving process.    

 

[4everjoeysmom]

Dear AngelGirl63,  One of the saddest parts of religion or grief is that when there are differences, there is an isolated feeling, a feeling of misunderstood, and a feeling of being different or inability to belong to a group...  I wish this was something that wasn't such a recurring issue, but it is.  I began this thread because obviously the secular world handles grief very differently.  I do not speak against catholicism, by any stretch.  Angel, I agree there are some doctrinal and cultural/traditional differences in protestant and catholic religions, but Faith in Jesus Christ as our Redeemer, Savior & Friend, and the Holy Spirit as our comforter--these are crucial markers of our faith shared by both viewpoints.  Yes?  Please do not feel you are unwelcome here.  As I mentioned earlier, if there are points in these writings that help you through your grief, then by all means feel free to share, because we want to be here for you.  We all need support and compassion through our grief.  I think we are all adult and mature enough in our faith to understand the differences here, and to give encouragement and compassion based on our emotional needs to reach out and be heard and understood.  Angel, I live and work as a missionary in a predominantly catholic country, and I am very sensitive to the traditional customs that are so dear to your faith.  My stand with you personally is likewise to the people that I live and work with here.  Let us embrace what is commonly shared in our faith and love one another, help one another, be here for one another.  As differences surface, we can try with love and understanding to work through them as they arise.  But let us stay focused on the main reason we are here...to lift one another up, listen, encourage, and pray for one another in our grief.  We do not need to lay out all our differences here for the sake of laying out our differences.  Does that really serve a good purpose for the genuine point of this thread?  Undoubtedly there may be questions that arise in time, but let us allow them naturally as a course of our sharing our grief and healing.  And if ultimately you feel this is not the place for you, then that is something that will be of personal choice.  But it should not be something that results because you do not feel welcomed or understood here.  You too are grieving a significant loss, yes?  We all have that in common, and we all are Christians.  Yes?  BIG HUGS TO YOU, ANGEL.  Blessings and Love, Claudia

[4everjoeysmom]

Hi Rody, I do not believe the view on angels is a petty distinction at all.  Jesus taught well and the Scriptures are clear on what we are to hold as our Hope for the future--being complete, perfected, bodily resurrected, with Him, glorified, and "in His image".  There is nothing in there about us having wings or morphing into various spirits and angels....  personally, I don't even know what a real angel looks like, because I don't recall having recognized one standing in front of me.  But if I were to think about how ancient works of art, man-created ideas and emotional reactions to ideas affect humankind, I could easily say each one of you is a beautiful angel to me here.  It is a figure of speech rather than a fact.  But it is a gesture of love and speaking to how precious each one of you is to me and others here....

On the factual side, we do have angels ministering to us in various ways, who are appointed by Jesus, as Scripture tells us, and who are sent for our good.

Isn't it wonderful to have factual and figurative angels?  Of course we don't worship angels, but they are great to have around...