Members His Monkey Posted February 26, 2017 Members Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 Herc wrote: "I found this article, which spoke to me on a few levels. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/atheists-death_b_4134439.html " My oldest daughter is a Physicist, graduating with her bachelor's degree in May, so this one I had to read. I'd never considered this perspective before, although with all the scientific talk at my house, I should have. Herc, thank you for posting this link. The idea that all of the energy that flowed between, within, and around myself and my sweetheart is still here, is profoundly comforting to me. That every particle that bounced around us was forever changed in direction, reminds me of all the beautiful ways this extraordinary man, and his perfect love, changed me. I am kinder, less critical, more patient, more loving, and although the exquisite pain of his loss is also changing me in ways yet unknown, I know this will make me a better person, too. If, like myself, anyone else here is not particularly religious, and is struggling with their beliefs and spirituality in the wake of their loss, please consider reading this one. I hope it brings you a little peace. Take care all, Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ModHerc Posted February 26, 2017 Moderators Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 Lisa, You are more than welcome. I am pretty firm in my belief of the beyond, for reasons I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum. I did like this though. For people strong in their faith, beware, there is some language that could be mildly offensive to your beliefs. But if you just look for the scientific angle and don't take it as an attack on religion there are some good thoughts and what I think is beautiful imagery. I am so glad it brought you comfort, Herc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fzald Posted February 26, 2017 Members Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 I've been thinking a lot about spiritual beliefs and science for a while now. I have always believed that there's "something more" than our conscious selves, something we live every day but cannot truly identify or "latch on to". I don't subscribe to a specific religious belief, so I guess you could call me agnostic. But I am also a person of science, I study technology for my career, and I always prefer to go with things I can observe. But I am also able to accept and even believe that there may be more to this existence than I am able to sense with my limited five senses. I could go on and on about this, but here's a few of the big points. First, at one time in the past, any of the modern technology we use every day today would have looked like magic. There is even a saying like this, I forget who said it, but basically "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." We have built amazing technology. Most of us carry a handheld device in our pockets that, using a totally "invisible" communication system (i.e. wireless), can access a vast, seemingly infinite network of information. Only 40 or so years ago, making a call to someone from "anywhere" required deep pockets and specialized equipment that barely fit in a suitcase. Today anyone can take a phone out of their pocket and call someone, anyone, from almost anywhere. Magic, right? What about science? There's all sorts of "stuff" around us that we cannot observe ourselves. We have machines and tools to measure all sorts of invisible fields: radiation, electromagnetic, radioactive, light that is beyond the visible spectrum, you name it. There are all kinds of things we cannot see or sense without specialized devices. Is it fair to completely cast off the idea of life after death simply because we do not have tools to detect it reliably? (In the past people were put to death for inventing devices to measure things not directly visible, remember.) Just because we have tons of advanced technology today though does not mean, by any stretch, that we have reached our limits, or the limits of the universe. Who knows, maybe someday we will be able to invent a "spirit phone" which can reliably contact the other side. Being a man of science doesn't necessarily have to exclude that possibility. Another thing to consider is that whole idea of multiple or parallel universes. Basically, if I have it right, it's that pretty much anything that can physically happen actually is or has happened, and our experience in life is just one pathway along this infinitely expanding and evolving maze of universes. How we navigate around the maze may be up to us in some ways (our free will) or it may be up to chance (such as when our beloveds pass on without any warning or chance). How do we actually move around this maze" That we don't know. But this is a theory that is actually discussed among physicists. Could it theoretically be possible to communicate between universes? Again, just because we can't do it, doesn't necessarily mean it's not possible. Even our own understanding of the laws of physics is based on our own experience within this universe. There are many "laws of physics" that we find we cannot violate within our plane of existence. But there are also other laws which are statistical laws, laws which are only "enforced" because the chance of them not being enforced is so infinitesimally small that it can be ignored. You'd have to assume, though, that if multiple universes can exist with all physical possibilities, that a statistical law could in fact be broken in one or a few of those many universes... One more thing. What about animals that seem to have overtly keen senses? I have read about dogs that can predict heart attacks, strokes, seizures, all sorts of maladies before they even happen. Maybe there's an odor change in our bodies, but either way, a dog would have to be not only extremely sensitive to that change but able to filter it out from all of the other odors that exist in the world. That's just one of the "superhuman" tasks dogs and animals have done for humans throughout history. Animals may not have as much of the "high" intelligence we do, but they have their own form of intellect. Maybe, because their heads don't have to be bothered with things like paying bills and dealing with fights with the neighbors all the time, they are more in tune with this "extra-sensory" world that we as humans can't even scratch the surface of. There's also a lot of reports of dogs and other animals apparently sending spiritual presences. I believe animals do have a "sixth sense" that we humans simply do not have, or maybe we do but our brains are so busy with intelligence that we're not able to tune into it, but in either case, it's just another reason to believe in there being more than we can observe. So anyway, how does all this relate back to losing someone we love so dearly? I think it means that we don't have to cast off and ignore the possibility of life after death just because you may not subscribe to a specific faith or belief system. We understand a lot more science than we ever have in the history of humanity, but I still believe we don't understand it all. Quantum physics is still a new field of study. But closer to home, what about our own consciousness? Physically, we are just a big bio-container full of living cells and tissues, and we just so happen to have a particularly big ball of tissues on the top of our bodies which, somehow, is able to provide us with the amazing experiences that we all have on this planet. We have free will, something that seems to violate the apparently deterministic rules of science. We have self-awareness, we can feel our own existence and consciously react to things. It doesn't seem to make sense that a big ball of atoms and molecules could do all the things we do if you go strictly on physics alone. I do wonder a lot if maybe we are just "avatars" that our spiritual selves control, and when our bodies give out for whatever reason and we pass on, we return to the "real world" - the world that our loves now inhabit, hopefully waiting anxiously for us. I had a fun visualization of my girlfriend while I wrote all of this. Someday, I will pass on. But I imagine stepping out of a "control pod", seeing my beloved girlfriend standing there and her saying "Wasn't that a rush! Wow, dude! I mean wasn't that just the most incredible experience? Wanna do it again?" As if we were just on a carnival ride. We had been to amusement parks together and laughed and screamed together on thrill rides. I saw us as just getting off another thrill ride, one that happens to last anywhere from less than a day to over 100 years. Maybe we are just on a carnival ride. And maybe we'll get to get off someday. And when that happens, maybe, just maybe, the people we connected to in this world will be there, to share the experience with, and to share what's next with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members His Monkey Posted February 26, 2017 Author Members Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 I'm a numbers girl, I work in banking, and either it adds up or it doesn't, you know? I love that. And losing my sweet man at 52 when we had so many things to look forward to together...it just doesn't add up for me. That's very difficult to wrap my little head around, so I've decided I'm not supposed to. It just is, and that's that. My daughter (the scientist) says the universe doesn't care about feelings, beliefs, and it doesn't recognize the word "should." It just is, and I fight it, question it, at my own peril. My girl is fiercely blunt, at times harsh, but usually right on point. She's definitely teaching her brokenhearted mom, which I'm sure she immensely enjoys. I had this thought, that as I write this, or wash dishes, or load the coffee maker, or put gas in my car, maybe one of the same particles that bounced around my sweet Greg is bouncing around me. And my lonely heart will accept that quantum bit of his brilliant, precious energy, and over time, maybe enough of it to put all my pieces back together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guests Guest Posted February 26, 2017 Guests Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 your daughter sounds right. the universe does not seem to care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fzald Posted February 26, 2017 Members Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 There are few things in this world that bring the finality of death. You said you work in banking. So you probably spend time working numbers, maybe even re-working them, sometimes trying to fix or deal with discrepancies. We usually feel like we have control of the world. That we are able to manipulate it to our will, to give us the things we so deeply desire from it. And in a lot of cases, we can do just that. We can make adjustments, take actions, all sorts of things to make things go our way. People say "the world is your oyster", and things like "chasing your dreams" or "World, here I come." These statements all come from a position of empowerment, that we are the master of our own destinies and we need only work hard, fight for what we believe and what we want and eventually it will come to us. Death is pretty much the antithesis to this idea. In particular for those left behind, death is one thing that, no matter how hard we try, no matter how much we work hard or fight, we do not have power over death. Doctors have to learn this very early on in their careers. Some patients, no matter how hard we try, won't make it. I know that doctors often struggle with this early on in their careers. The guilt has to be immense the first time a patient dies under a doctor's care. But yes, death is one out of a very few things we have truly no control whatsoever over in the end. Once someone dies, that's it, they're gone. This realization is so humbling. It turns everything on its head. It doesn't matter how much we want someone to live, it doesn't matter how hard we, or even that person, fights, in the end if death is coming, it's coming. We do seek out meaning, and even the hope of life after death is partly our own psyche crying out for some control, some reason, some understanding. I still do believe there's more out there, I believed that before my girlfriend passed away. But her death drove home the points you made: that the universe doesn't care at all about what we want. "Ask and ye shall receive?" Not sure I buy that one. Some things are just going to happen, and we either deal or don't deal... I do have a few of my girlfriend's possessions. They would still have her fingerprints on them. Maybe it's weird, but even that is sort of part of her essence, something that came off her body, particles that were part of her. Weird, right? But I do cling to that fact, that a part of her, even that insignificant, is still with me. I'd much prefer all of her to be here. I don't want to be in this reality. But I guess I have no choice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guests Guest Posted February 26, 2017 Guests Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 interesting you say that, i don't feel that control to begin with. so death happens and life is once again telling me 'i am the master.' nothing new there. yet the pain is all the same. but there's a lot more out there than we could even comprehend. it would be nice to know what some of that is, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fzald Posted February 26, 2017 Members Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 My problem has been reconciling that lack of control with the desire to keep trying. If I can't control anything, are my efforts worth it? If I might die tomorrow, or if anyone else I love might die tomorrow, is it worth it? It's like a gamble. Maybe you win, Maybe you lose. But I shy away from gambling for that very reason. I don't want to take the chance of the loss. Life doesn't care though. We're all sitting at a huge casino table. We either play, or we walk away............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guests Guest Posted February 26, 2017 Guests Report Share Posted February 26, 2017 Yep... that's why the desire to keep trying is hard for me. For once, I was somewhat motivated prior to her death (to change my life and be better), now that's all gone. Who knows how things will work out. I'm not completely hopeless, but I don't feel that desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members His Monkey Posted February 27, 2017 Author Members Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 Wow, this became a pretty deep-thinking thread...love that too. I hear so much pain, sadness, doubt, frustration, maybe a little anger. All of these are my constant companions since November, and I understand. Another idea though, and please don't take offense, is that the universe isn't exacting some karmic toll, or revenge, or singling us out (or our lost loves) for this pain. For me, this helps assuage the guilt, and calm the questioning thoughts. Just an idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ModHerc Posted February 27, 2017 Moderators Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 I don't buy the premise that we lose. About 50 yards from Christine's grave is a bench under a tree where I sometimes sit and smoke while I visit her. Directly in front of that bench is the grave of a child. The child lived for precisely one day short of a month. I think it is June 25th, 2005 to July 24th, 2005. I could be off on those dates. That little girl did not lose. She came into this world, gave it her best try, and for some reason passed far too soon. Maybe your right, maybe the goal of life is to live forever, and when time eventually catches up to us we all lose. I prefer to think that if we live well, and give everything we can to the struggle that is life, we win, regardless of when or how we die. Mortality claimed the love of my life. It will one day claim me to. In the years she was here, she lived well, cared for others, and fostered so much love that she is remembered daily. She did not lose. I am not afraid of death, I haven't been for many years. I am not rushing into it by any means, but I am also not allowing it to conquer my life with fear. I will live well, care for others, and try to foster as much love as she did. And when death eventually comes for me, I will look him in the eye and tell him I am ready, knowing that he lost because nothing he can do will take those accomplishments from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fzald Posted February 27, 2017 Members Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 HM, I don't think I can be mad at the universe either. I don't believe in these sorts of things being "chosen" by a deity. Did some sentient entity decide that she should die? No. Did some conscious being cause her brain to hemorrhage? No. Did any deity, god, supreme being, whatever, look at her and say "Yep, it's your time to go, too bad if you wanna stay?" No. Her death was purely an accident. She got dealt a bad hand, and her cards sadly included brain aneurysms and a young death. But did she lose everything? No. She did have almost 23 magical years. She did everything she possibly could with those 22+ years, within practical limits. Depression and suicidal thoughts haunted her for some years, but she never lost her charm. I do feel honored to be part of what helped her pull through that dark period. I didn't even know how she truly felt inside at the time, but when she did tell me that she had been suicidal and that meeting me really helped her, I had tears in my eye - tears of joy. I do feel like I've lost a lot though. I did lose someone - the best person I could have ever known, the person who I was beyond honored to be chosen by, the person who I wanted to give everything the world had to offer to. No matter how dark my world got, she was a constant source of light. We were for each other. I am knocked down, as they say. I don't feel I have much to give to this life right now. I know I am grieving and that involves a lot of pain and suffering and heartache and hard work. I don't have much to give to the world. This saddens me too, because as some of you have said, I'm not the guy she would look down upon and say "Yep, that's the man I love." On the other hand, her concern for my feelings and well-being was so evident that I do believe she'd look down on me and say "That's the man I love, but I wish I could help him stop hurting so much." She wouldn't blame me for hurting. But I don't want to keep hurting. I want to live whatever life I have left to live, but I just don't have it in me right now. That fact is almost as sad as the fact that she is gone forever from our world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members His Monkey Posted February 27, 2017 Author Members Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 Beautiful, Herc. I agree in that if my legacy is love, I will live on in all who knew me. My family and friends will feel happy when they remember me. In that way, we all win☺ I'd do well to try the same with my love. My fear is this...he was estranged from his family until a few months before he died, they have no idea how decorated his military service was, how he spent the years between the service and our meeting two years ago, or how hard he worked to get to a place where he could be the man I knew. I am the only keeper of those stories. When the inevitable happens, this man's remarkable story goes with me. I can't bear that, the idea makes me sick. So I've decided to write it. Maybe the recollection of all those moments, the act of putting them into words in case memory fades, will be cathartic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ModHerc Posted February 27, 2017 Moderators Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 Monkey, I think writing your loves story is a wonderful idea. The way I look at it, the love, caring, and compassion for others is like a beautiful, beneficial virus. My wife passed it to me, our daughters, our family, friends and many others. I will try to do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ModHerc Posted February 27, 2017 Moderators Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 41 minutes ago, fzald said: HM, I don't think I can be mad at the universe either. I don't believe in these sorts of things being "chosen" by a deity. Did some sentient entity decide that she should die? No. Did some conscious being cause her brain to hemorrhage? No. Did any deity, god, supreme being, whatever, look at her and say "Yep, it's your time to go, too bad if you wanna stay?" No. Her death was purely an accident. She got dealt a bad hand, and her cards sadly included brain aneurysms and a young death. But did she lose everything? No. She did have almost 23 magical years. She did everything she possibly could with those 22+ years, within practical limits. Depression and suicidal thoughts haunted her for some years, but she never lost her charm. I do feel honored to be part of what helped her pull through that dark period. I didn't even know how she truly felt inside at the time, but when she did tell me that she had been suicidal and that meeting me really helped her, I had tears in my eye - tears of joy. I do feel like I've lost a lot though. I did lose someone - the best person I could have ever known, the person who I was beyond honored to be chosen by, the person who I wanted to give everything the world had to offer to. No matter how dark my world got, she was a constant source of light. We were for each other. I am knocked down, as they say. I don't feel I have much to give to this life right now. I know I am grieving and that involves a lot of pain and suffering and heartache and hard work. I don't have much to give to the world. This saddens me too, because as some of you have said, I'm not the guy she would look down upon and say "Yep, that's the man I love." On the other hand, her concern for my feelings and well-being was so evident that I do believe she'd look down on me and say "That's the man I love, but I wish I could help him stop hurting so much." She wouldn't blame me for hurting. But I don't want to keep hurting. I want to live whatever life I have left to live, but I just don't have it in me right now. That fact is almost as sad as the fact that she is gone forever from our world. Fzald, We have lost a lot. But in order to lose something we must have it in the first place. The other day I was at the post office, there was a lengthy line, and it passed right by the greeting cards. With the way my mind is working these days, of course I looked through the sympathy cards while waiting. The one I would have picked had two sentences on it. "When we grieve it is because we loved" on the left side, and on the right, "When we love, we always gain more than we can ever lose". Sappy hallmark drivel? Possibly, but even if it is, does it make it any less true? If she is watching, she does still love you. She does want you to stop hurting. She doesn't blame you for hurting. Don't worry about giving to the world, or life right now. Worry about getting through that pain one moment at a time if you have to. But if I were you, I wouldn't give up on the concept of eventually being able to give something to your life. You deserve the possibility of getting to that point one step at a time, and robbing that hope from yourself may put you in a place mentally where you stop trying. That would hurt you even more. Wishing you comfort and a good nights rest, Herc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trawna Posted February 27, 2017 Members Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 7 hours ago, His Monkey said: Herc wrote: "I found this article, which spoke to me on a few levels. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/atheists-death_b_4134439.html " My oldest daughter is a Physicist, graduating with her bachelor's degree in May, so this one I had to read. I'd never considered this perspective before, although with all the scientific talk at my house, I should have. Herc, thank you for posting this link. The idea that all of the energy that flowed between, within, and around myself and my sweetheart is still here, is profoundly comforting to me. That every particle that bounced around us was forever changed in direction, reminds me of all the beautiful ways this extraordinary man, and his perfect love, changed me. I am kinder, less critical, more patient, more loving, and although the exquisite pain of his loss is also changing me in ways yet unknown, I know this will make me a better person, too. If, like myself, anyone else here is not particularly religious, and is struggling with their beliefs and spirituality in the wake of their loss, please consider reading this one. I hope it brings you a little peace. Take care all, Lisa I have been an atheist for over 60 years. I find comfort in the basic premise that everything that is matter can become energy. I think that somewhere in some universe our energy still exists, not as we were. but as energy of some sort. Just before my husband died, (he was a Star Trek fan) I asked him to save a place for me beside him for the journey, and he smiled and nodded ... our last communication. Not rational perhaps, but it has helped me every day since he died. May you all find peace of mind, and the courage to go on living. I am not angry any more, I accept death as a part of life in our present form. I do not expect to reconnect in any way to those who have died, that is not a part of my belief system , But I do think that energy survives, at least on some level, and will welcome whatever that is when it comes, without regret. My thoughts are with all of you who grieve for what was, but please think of what wonderful possibilities there may be. And if there are none, so be it, we will not miss anything if that is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Andy Posted February 27, 2017 Members Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 11 hours ago, Herc said: I don't buy the premise that we lose. About 50 yards from Christine's grave is a bench under a tree where I sometimes sit and smoke while I visit her. Directly in front of that bench is the grave of a child. The child lived for precisely one day short of a month. I think it is June 25th, 2005 to July 24th, 2005. I could be off on those dates. That little girl did not lose. She came into this world, gave it her best try, and for some reason passed far too soon. Maybe your right, maybe the goal of life is to live forever, and when time eventually catches up to us we all lose. I prefer to think that if we live well, and give everything we can to the struggle that is life, we win, regardless of when or how we die. Mortality claimed the love of my life. It will one day claim me to. In the years she was here, she lived well, cared for others, and fostered so much love that she is remembered daily. She did not lose. I am not afraid of death, I haven't been for many years. I am not rushing into it by any means, but I am also not allowing it to conquer my life with fear. I will live well, care for others, and try to foster as much love as she did. And when death eventually comes for me, I will look him in the eye and tell him I am ready, knowing that he lost because nothing he can do will take those accomplishments from me. Well said. I find your point of view very encouraging and containing that crucial element, hope. I'm trying to not just find that, but maintain it. Again, well said. Thank you, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ModHerc Posted February 27, 2017 Moderators Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 14 hours ago, His Monkey said: I'm a numbers girl, I work in banking, and either it adds up or it doesn't, you know? I love that. And losing my sweet man at 52 when we had so many things to look forward to together...it just doesn't add up for me. That's very difficult to wrap my little head around, so I've decided I'm not supposed to. It just is, and that's that. My daughter (the scientist) says the universe doesn't care about feelings, beliefs, and it doesn't recognize the word "should." It just is, and I fight it, question it, at my own peril. My girl is fiercely blunt, at times harsh, but usually right on point. She's definitely teaching her brokenhearted mom, which I'm sure she immensely enjoys. I had this thought, that as I write this, or wash dishes, or load the coffee maker, or put gas in my car, maybe one of the same particles that bounced around my sweet Greg is bouncing around me. And my lonely heart will accept that quantum bit of his brilliant, precious energy, and over time, maybe enough of it to put all my pieces back together. 14 hours ago, new133 said: your daughter sounds right. the universe does not seem to care. Both Lisa's daughter and new133 are right, the universe doesn't care. Nor do we need it to. The universe is just the stage on which our play is set. What we do while we are here is something completely different. We have the ability to care for one another. I don't expect kindness from complete strangers, but that doesn't mean I can't offer it. I don't expect to be given a fair opportunity in this life, I will have to go forward and create that on my own to the best of my ability. I don't expect anything of the universe, it is far too large to be bothered with someone as small as me. And on occasion there will be horrible tragedies, like the ones we are encountering. I could blame the universe for those, blame myself, or blame others. In the end it doesn't matter where the blame falls, the situation is before us and it is up to us to figure out what we do from here. My answer is simple, I will do the best I can. Sometimes it will be the right thing to do, sometimes it will be wrong. Sometimes I won't have the strength to do anything at all, and that is ok too. The universe is not responsible for our setbacks, and neither is it responsible for our achievements. It just is. We are all in it and together we will find our way through as best we can. I hope everyone has a day filled with kindness and compassion, Herc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators KayC Posted February 27, 2017 Moderators Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 18 hours ago, His Monkey said: Herc wrote: "I found this article, which spoke to me on a few levels. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/atheists-death_b_4134439.html " I posted this on my other grief site for those also grappling without seeming hope and it was well received there also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members His Monkey Posted February 27, 2017 Author Members Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 Hope...so desperately needed at times like this, yet so elusive for many of us. I too have many of my beloved's things around me. They comfort me, just as his handsome face smiles back at me in his puctures, and a reminder of his warm hugs envelops me when I wear his jacket and wedding band. Whatever touched him, I believe, has his brilliant essence still upon it. My wish for everyone here, is that you find whatever brings you that small measure of comfort and hope, and hold tight to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KMB Posted February 27, 2017 Members Report Share Posted February 27, 2017 His Monkey---So right you are. Hang on tight to whatever we have left. Our loved ones essence is always going to be with their personal things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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